Asta 2

Well, let's try this again.....

I've made it clear that I believe James or anyone involved with BtVS or Angel is entitled to their opinion. And while he may have one interpretation from his/Spike's perspective, SMG/Buffy may have entirely different view of the same scene. Then throw in how we see it as fans and we have a multitude of opinions.

The only ones that have a clue as to who is right and who is wrong are the writers and even they don't like to draw conclusions too often. That's what makes the show so great, we all have the ability to see the show as we wish to see it and how many shows can you say that about?

James raised some interesting (and valid) points in giving his interpretation of certain events. So here's my interpretation of his interpretation's. :p



Spike and Buffy didn’t have sex that last night.

James has always believed that Spike is beneath Buffy – which she is, as the hero, deserving of better. Add to the mix that he believes an AR is not something a couple can come back from (hard to argue with that point). Spike would agree with this. In ‘Touched’ and ‘End of Days’ he makes his feelings clear while expecting nothing in return. He’s accepted the situation as is. So, when James states that Spike would not have attempted to resurrect a sexual relationship with Buffy, I agree with him.

However, what if Buffy were to make the first move? It was she who went to him in the basement. And if it’s something she wanted, would Spike have turned her down? Regardless of what Spike tells himself is the right thing to do, I can’t fathom his desire to be with her has lessened and, given the opportunity, he would decline.

Angel is Buffy’s one true love and who she is meant to be with.

This I don’t accept, though I don’t fault him for his opinion – SMG has stated the same thing on numerous occasions. Frankly, maybe Buffy is destined to not reunite with either of them. For all the problems she and Spike had, I just don’t see that a relationship with Angel would be any more successful. She may still hold on to the romantic ideal, but both she and Angel have changed in their time apart. Do they know each other as they are now? If they were given any real time to spend together I think they would see for themselves that it ain’t gonna work.

And I’m not sure even Joss knows who, if anyone, Buffy should end up with. He left things ambivalent enough to keep us guessing while having Buffy, in her cookie dough metaphor, verbalize that she’s not ready for any kind of commitment now and it could be a long time in coming.

In response to Buffy’s “I Love You”, Spike was being honest when he said “No, you don’t”.

On this point, as far as I can tell, James’ original statement was taken out of context and distorted. He doesn’t believe Buffy is in love with Spike. That perhaps she wanted to believe it, or at least give that belief to him before he died, but Spike knows better. Fair enough. And even though Spike has grown considerably in maturity and emotional health, I still believe he holds on to a very black and white view of love. Buffy does care about Spike and I think her actions have shown that throughout the season. For me, the words have always meant less then how showed her affection and in the last few episodes her actions spoke volumes. Buffy definitely cared deeply about Spike and I think Spike knew that, it’s just she. Perhaps, wasn’t giving him the love he had sought for so long. Then again, given her admittance that she needs to find herself before committing to one person, she may yet realize she shares his definition of love.
  • Current Mood: contemplative contemplative
Excellent Points
Starting with the idea that different interpretations of episodes and scenes are what make being a fan of this show so wonderful. I think Joss consciously makes an effort to leave scenes open to interpretation to inspire interest and debate.

As for your interpretations of James' interpretations - no surprise that I agree with you :)

quote:
However, what if Buffy were to make the first move? It was she who went to him in the basement. And if it’s something she wanted, would Spike have turned her down? Regardless of what Spike tells himself is the right thing to do, I can’t fathom his desire to be with her has lessened and, given the opportunity, he would decline.


Especially since he's still clearly very jealous of Angel. Even if he isn't expecting anything from Buffy, he clearly isn't ready to see her with anyone else, and if she has shown an interest in him, I think he will take what she feels comfortable giving.

quote:
For all the problems she and Spike had, I just don’t see that a relationship with Angel would be any more successful.


Not to mention that it also has the potential to disastrous - because the Happiness Clause is still alive and well, at least as far as we know it is. When Buffy was 18 she said a physcial relationship wasn't important to her. I don't think she feels that way anymore. Plus, I think Joss is not going to put all his eggs in one basket regarding Buffy's love life.

quote:
Buffy does care about Spike and I think her actions have shown that throughout the season. For me, the words have always meant less then how showed her affection and in the last few episodes her actions spoke volumes. Buffy definitely cared deeply about Spike and I think Spike knew that, it’s just she. Perhaps, wasn’t giving him the love he had sought for so long. Then again, given her admittance that she needs to find herself before committing to one person, she may yet realize she shares his definition of love.


This I totally agree with. Buffy has always spoke more loudly in her actions than she ever has with her words. And when she does use them, it's never casually, or to just make someone feel better. Another thing - just what was going through their minds when their hands were joined? Looked like there was a "bloody revelation" for both of them, IMO. As for Buffy, I think telling Spike she loves him doesn't mean there would have been an instant commitment. Love isn't enough. She's still a work in progress, but that doesn't mean she can't feel love, and that it isn't real.

Didn't mean to quote your entire post, but it was just too good not to :)






Forgot to say this
Further proof that what Buffy feels for Spike isn't platonic is the way she treats him in comparion to the totally platonic relationship she has with Xander. She loves Xander, but she's never let him hold her and comfort her as Spike did in Touched, or caressed his arm as she did in Chosen, or slept with him (non-sexually). She's done all this with Spike - not to mention her fantasy of the vampire/oil wrassling ;)
Yes to everything that's been said here, and especially to the observation that spoilers fan the flames of fannish frenzy and break people into frighteningly solid camps long before anyone has ever seen the episode in question. It also means that the unspoiled who go online to discuss the episode after it airs will find themselves immediately being channeled into these existing factions, often without having the chance to let their own impressions fully gel.

Also, I briefly mentioned this over in wisteria_'s journal but I think it fits in with what's being said here: I believe the way JM has approached his acting in the role of Spike significantly colors how he sees the character. As asta77 said, he has always believed Spike to be beneath Buffy, because of the whole Vampire/Slayer thing and because he has always been a method actor, trying to actually become the character he was portraying. Interestingly, I read that after the first part of S7 he stopped using Method, because he found that playing Insane!Spike was making him a little crazy in real life.

Spike, the character, didn't forgive himself for the AR, even (especially) after he got his soul. What's more, JM experienced most of the redemptive journey one step removed from Spike, because he'd dropped the method acting by then. So it's not surprising to me that JM can't understand how Spike could be truly forgiven or redeemed from the AR--he can't forgive it himself, and wasn't "there" when his character moved past it (assuming he did, which I suppose is subject to debate).

(I can only hope this makes some kind of sense; it's been a really long and exhausting day. If it doesn't, pretend I've just nodded along with everything the rest of you have said--which is pretty much the case, anyway.)
Buffy and Spike were embroiled in a DEEPLY fucked up relationship and, under the best of circumstances, we are all capable of some pretty heinous stuff. These were far from the best of circumstances, and it was not, to me, an illogical or unbelievable outcome. Neither did I find it a plot device without point. Throughout S6, they had probed into some dark places in B/S's relationship, which meant that any crisis between them would have to be motivated by something pretty dramatic....I said then, and I still think, I can't envision another event that would have been a believable precipitating factor.

Your entire post was brilliantly put (as usual) but this part in particular had me shaking my head in agreement. First, their relationship was born of violence and I saw no signs of it dissipating. Secondly, take into consideration that Spike was not getting what he most desired - he had had her body but not her. Given even a small glimce of what he could, no matter how slim the chance, possibly have and then having it taken away was more than he could bare. Since many of their past sexual encounters contained an element of violence and that Spike within was a demon desiring to be released, the fact that the AR happened was not a complete shock to me either.

And contrary to what many think, what else would have motivated Spike to take the actions he did? Just prior to the attack he swore to Buffy he'd never hurt her. And as previously demonstrated, kicks and punches didn't count to them. It was seeing the emotional and psychological pain he inflicted upon Buffy that made him realze that merely saying he had changed was not enough. And while he did seek the soul in order to become the man he thought Buffy wanted him to be, he ended up becoming more - the man he never believed he could be. Again, without the AR, I don't know what would have motivated him to act and achieve his grace.


Spike, the character, didn't forgive himself for the AR, even (especially) after he got his soul. What's more, JM experienced most of the redemptive journey one step removed from Spike, because he'd dropped the method acting by then. So it's not surprising to me that JM can't understand how Spike could be truly forgiven or redeemed from the AR--he can't forgive it himself, and wasn't "there" when his character moved past it (assuming he did, which I suppose is subject to debate).

Excellent point Plin, I didn't even think about it in those terms. It could be a contributing factor in his views on the story arc. Even if not, I can understand, given past staements, why he doesn't believe Spike could get past it and become worthy of Buffy. But, taken in the context of the show and the circumstances surrounding their relationship it is believable and acceptable to me.
quote:
Probably most people reading this who know me expected the comment about people being capable heinous things, so please try not to fall over when I say this: People are also capable incredible grace, forgiveness, change, and atonement.


Chris, I think this sums up the entire relationship.

As you and Asta have said, James' opinion on this hasn't wavered since the episodes aired. Therefore, I wonder why people keep asking him the same questions over and over again. Do they think he's going to change his mind if he's worn down enough? Don't think he's going to change his mind on this, at least I hope he doesn't.