Frakking Kidding Me - jenahville

BSG 2.5 Deleted Scenes

While I still don’t find it acceptable that the deleted scenes from the Sci-Fi site were not included on the DVDs, it dawned on me last night that those scenes, with the possible exception of the Lee/Shevon clips, were not scenes that fleshed out the characters or aided in the plot. Nearly every deleted scene on the DVDs seems important in some way. While I am pleased some of these scenes were cut (and I’ll give my two cents as to why) I can see why they were written and filmed even if the writers ultimately decided not to go there, the scenes were deemed redundant, or they just didn’t have the time.



There is exactly one deleted scene from Resurrection Ship Pt 1. It’s the unkindest cut of all. I watched this scene four times last night. I had to. After the first viewing it hit that this was the scene that did a superb job of explaining Lee’s suicide attempt and depression. It was well written. It was well acted. They had it and they tossed it aside for two women we didn’t know and some half baked psychology.

The scene takes place soon after Adama’s revelation to Lee that he and the president have decided to assassinate Cain. Lee is alone, throwing back one drink after another. We’ve seen Lee drink, but never like this. He’s already searching for oblivion.

Dee enters and refers to him as “Captain” as she informs him that Pegasus is awaiting his return. He corrects her on his rank, “Its Lieutenant now actually…forget it, doesn’t matter. I’m not sure what does anymore.” And there we have it folks. We see Lee has given up. His father and Laura, two people he trusts and respects and has put his faith when there wasn’t much else left for him, have betrayed him and Lee no longer sees the point of going on. Oh, it gets worse.

Dee: “There’s a happy thought”
Lee: “Dee, I can’t even begin to tell you how fraked up things are right now.”
Dee: “Since Pegasus arrived?”
Lee: “Yeah…no, no, I don’t know I guess I thought it was then, but now I’m not so sure we’re that different, just a step away from the choices they made.”

I recall reading an interview, maybe with Jamie that talked about how Lee’s depression wasn’t a sudden thing. That it had been building for awhile. It seems that here Lee reveals long standing doubts that he hadn’t allowed himself to visit. When the Pegasus arrived it was easy to blame their/his troubles on that situation. Now he’s confronted with choices people he is close to are making and are those choices any less reprehensible?

Dee points out that they (the Galactica personal) have not resorted to raping prisoners. Lee’s response is “No, we haven’t done that, not yet.” Ouch. If Lee believes that, that this is where Galactica and humanity are heading, why would he want to go on?

Dee: “Are you saying?”
Lee: “Look, I don’t know what I’m saying. How’s that for clarity? All I know is that, um, well the reason we keep going out fighting and dying. It’s just not that clear to me anymore.”

He puts his hand on Dee’s shoulder and leaves the room.

Lee the idealist, the man who assisted in an insurrection to uphold the articles and democracy, who puts his life on the line daily to help keep humanity alive now doubts his reasoning for everything he has done. After watching this scene so many of his actions and reactions made sense and made ‘Black Market’ becomes even more of an aberration.

This scene also helps to clarify Dee’s stalkerish behavior at the end of the episode. Knowing what his mindset was, that he thought life was pointless, she must have been concerned that his near death experience was not just an accident. She went to check on him for valid reasons and had her fears confirmed.

Black Market

Watching what was edited, it could have been worse. Seriously. The most bizarre moment comes in the first deleted scene. As Lee slips Shevon an extra hundred to get something nice for Paya (yeah, he says that), Shevon decides to give Lee something – a watch (I think, it’s not very clear) that belonged to her father. When she flips it open it reveals a picture of Paya. She wants him to have it because she’ll just end up trading it for something later. Um, WTF? OK, maybe this is part of a set up (if Shevon was setting him up the entire time – another thing never made clear), if not, how does she have the nerve to lay into him at the end for making her and Paya a replacement for Gianne and the baby he never had? You gave him your father’s watch with a picture of your daughter in it!

Speaking of Gianne (yes, we get her name here) there are a couple of scenes where she’s discussed more directly. When Lee wakes up after almost being killed, he sits on the bed before collapsing back onto it. It’s actually a really nice edit as we go from Present Lee to Past Lee in bed with Shevon. He talks about Gianne hating her name because no one could pronounce it right and how he got it wrong for weeks and she never corrected him. OK, for two people dating, that’s just weird. Then we get the bit about him thinking he loved her.

In the final scene, as Shevon confronts Lee about being a replacement family with Paya taking the place of the baby he didn’t have, we get a flashback wherein Lee reveals to Shevon that Gianne she was pregnant, but he didn’t think he was ready. I’m thankful this was cut, because it makes his non-acknowledgment of any of this up until this point even more inexplicable. Though the cut seems to have necessitated another in ‘Scar’.

There is a brief clip of the discovery of Fisk’s body by Lt Hoshi. Yep, that sums that up.

In addition to the scene in RS there is another in ‘Black Market’ that really helps build momentum and understanding in regards to the Lee/Dee relationship. Dee meets Lee as he disembarks a raptor, returning from his night with Shevon on Cloud Nine. He’s surprised to see her and has this ‘Oh crap, I just spent the night with a hooker and here’s this nice girl who’s interested in me’ look. Whether or not Dee deduces what he’s been up to, no clue.

She’s there to tell him that Adama wants to see him immediately. As she walks with him, she comments that she’s missed talking with him and it seems like he’s avoiding her. She goes on to admit that she heard what he said after being rescued. Lee claims he was sick, delirious, “Whatever I was feeling I never meant to dump any of it on you.” Um, no, since she was listening outside your door without your knowledge. :p Dee says she was glad she heard it because, for the longest time, she thought she was the only one who thought they may be better off on Caprica. At that point, Lee gets in her face and tells her never to say that. His strong reaction is meant to show he had feelings for her, though I could imagine him saying the same thing to Racetrack or Kat. And as Lee climbs up the stairs to leave Dee and go see his father, he stops momentarily and has a flashback to Gianne and her leaving him. I’m sure he’s imaging her death on Caprica and we’re suppose to make the connection that it would hurt him equally if Dee suffered the same fate.

Here’s where the Lee/Dee ship gets tricky for me. The excised scenes would have gone a long way in developing the relationship on screen and make the how and why of their relationship make some sense to me. I’ve chosen to view these scenes as canon because their relationship is canon. Scenes such as Sharon’s rape (I haven’t watched the extended ‘Pegasus’ yet, but I know what happens), Gianne’s pregnancy, or a rather silly subplot in ‘Downloaded’ I can ignore because those were cuts that added little to nothing to what we saw on screen.

While the logical part of my brain is now more willing to try and process the relationship between Lee and Dee, I’ll never be sold on it. The writing of the scenes, for the most part, is pretty good. I get where they were attempting to go. Besides, I didn’t desire to see Lee sitting on the sidelines waiting for Kara while she got her crap straightened out. However, the actors, in my opinion, lack any romantic chemistry. And not to slam Kandyse, but her acting ability is not on par with Jamie or others on the show. Jamie’s best performances are when he’s working off of Katee, Mary, or EJO. There’s tension, there’s drama, there’s sparks flying. Watching Jamie and Kandyse, there’s just nothing there. There’s no connection. They’re reading their lines at each other, but they aren’t really talking to each other. It’s why I ultimately can’t buy it.

When Lee arrives on Pegasus to begin his investigation, he meets the XO, a Captain Renor (sp?). He takes an immediate dislike to Lee because he’s an outsider and Adama’s son. Renor makes a remark about ‘in his twenty years as captain’ which leads Lee to make a crack about him still being a captain after twenty years. It progressively gets more school yardish with Renor calling Lee “a little puke”, informing him they were just fine before Galactica came along, and telling Lee to go tell Adama to take his little investigation and go frak himself. I need to add that the actor playing Renor is not good which makes the juvenile behavior even worse. Following the last remark Lee pins him to a table and says, “The sick thing is there was a time I would have agreed with you.” An unusual moment of introspection amongst the posturing. Lee goes on to say if Renor speaks another word against his father next time he won’t get up, then marches off stating, “The investigation is mine, get used to it.” I really didn’t like this scene. Two men acting like children and Lee should be seen as a guy in charge rather than a guy with a chip on his shoulder.

In an odd and distracting bit of casting, as Lee makes his way through the Prometheus looking for Phalen he’s stopped by the actor who played the CAG in the mini series. Lee offers his gun for trade (idiot) for information on Phalen, but the guy wants the watch Shevon gave him instead. He hesitates, but trades it and is told Phalen is…right down the hall. Can I say how dumb this scene was? Lee then precedes to beat the crap out of two guards (Lee is swinging from a bar at one point – kind of neat ;) and is ‘captured’ by a third who asks him if he’s ever had the feeling he’s living the same bad day again and again.

Scar

There are a couple of scenes relating to the auction of dead pilots gear. Duck tells a newbie to leave his watch behind for him so he doesn’t have to bid on it at auction. Lee leads an auction and begins by offering up a Maxim-like magazine. Jamie/Lee gets really into selling it, acting in a not Lee-like way. I’ve seen that some people really liked this clip, but it made me a little embarrassed for him.

After Kara goes table surfing, Helo goes over to, not help her up, but help her into the corner. Huh? And we see Lee asked if the wakes are always like this to which he replies “No. Sometimes they get a little rowdy.”

There is an extended take of the scene between Laura, Tigh, and Adama in the CIC. Honestly, I’m not exactly sure what is new and what isn’t. Tigh argues they should leave the area now before they lose more pilots. I think Laura ends up listening to more chatter over the comm from the pilots and realizes just how bad it is for them out there.

No additional scenes of Lee and Kara almost having sex, but there is more to the conversation between the two in the rec room. After Lee’s comment about bright, shiny futures being overrated Kara starts making jokes about “Can you picture you with a wife…and a kid and a porch swing because the gods know you would have a little porch swing.” Lee admits to having thought about it once. Kara is still very amused, “you wanted some little, stinky rugrat pissing on your knee.” But you see Lee sobered by the discussion. “I thought it might be nice. Teach the little kid to swim, play pyramid. What? Anyway, it’s not going to happen now.” Then we go into living for the moment and the kiss.

There’s an alternate ending. I like the one that aired better. Kat visits the memorial to place the picture of the young woman on the wall. We then cut to Kara praying and stating “I’m coming back. I said it. I meant it. I’ll do it.” Obviously she is referring to Anders.

Sacrifice

Two brief scenes involving, er, Dana Delaney’s character’s husband. He talks to her briefly on the phone before his ship is attacked. It’s established this happened ten weeks before.

The Captain’s Hand

A little more insight into Garner’s captaining style is established. He chews out Kara for supposedly not knowing about the missing pilots and, in turn, criticizes the missing pilots. He states to Lee that Kara needs to be watched every minute of every day. And he dismisses the communications guy, Hoshi, simply because he fails to inform him he was giving clearance to a raptor to launch. He Tells Lee that the crew need discipline and cohesion but he comes off as a little paranoid.

Another scene between Lee and Kara which would seem to come between their initial angry confrontation and eventual reconciliation. Lee informs Kara that he’s sending out a recon mission, per Adama’s decision. This goes against what Garner wanted to do. Kara is disappointed in Lee’s behavior, that he seemingly refuses to take a stand against Garner. “Bob and weave. Duck and cover. Frak Lee you should be a politician.” (Side note: I have to wonder if this was foreshadowing for events down the road. I’ve always felt Lee was being groomed to follow in Laura’s footsteps.) Lee states that Garner is wrong about this and Lee knows it, but that he’s still owed respect and loyalty - “You owed him the chance to make it as the commander of this ship.” Kara counters with what about what he owes them? They deserve a leader worthy of the people he leads. Lee turns away at this and can’t look at her. Kara knows that she’s gotten to him.

Kara: “You hate it when she argues rationally don’t you. So much easier when she’s a fowl mouthed hot head howling at the moon.”
Lee: “I know you didn’t mean to shoot me Kara, I know that….I don’t know why I’m angry at you Kara, I really don’t. I just am.”

There’s a hint of a bitter laugh off his final remark and Kara responds in kind. Of course, later, he will reveal the source of his anger.

Some additional footage involving Laura and the Quorum delegate Sara intercut with shots of Bria (?), the girl who received the abortion .We see that the girl attempted suicide by ingesting pills and while she initially appears dead, Cottle is able to revive her.

The Lee/Kara scene at the end was longer and involved Dee. Following Lee’s “Yeah, we’re OK” and the hug, we get a close up of their faces and the looks they convey seem to ask are they really? It’s a combination of wondering if they have gotten past it all and also perhaps some regret as to what hasn’t been said or done.

Dee opens up the hatch, Kara smiles at her and states, “I was just leaving”. As she leaves she informs them, “I’ll put the boots outside the door for you guys.” Dee asks Lee if he’s ever going to tell her about promotions and while she says she’s happy for him, you can tell she’s not. “Guess this wasn’t going to work.” But Lee states he’s leaving Galactica not her (this was shown in a previously). She doesn’t know how they can make it work, him neither, but he’ll try if she will.

Dee: “You think she was kidding about the boots?”
Lee: “Starbuck doesn’t kid about that sort of thing.”

And there’s a bunch of kissing.

Downloaded

A brief shot of Laura with Hera in her incubator, “Thank you for saving my life.”

Baltar asks Gina to arrange to have Hera kidnapped. Gina thinks he’s crazy. He states he has no one else to turn to. Gina refers to Sharon as a loose canon and her child a “half breed”. Baltar stresses how important this is to him personally. He wants to ensure the safety of the child. Gina is more concerned that Roslin is up three points in the polls. Baltar tries to reach Gina by using her belief in God and that the child is a harbinger for a new order. Six enters the picture and reminds him that they are different indivisuals and that Gina is broken, damaged beyond redemption. Baltar eventually gets Gina to agree to his plan by stating they can sensationalize the story of Helo, Sharon, and Hera in the press and use it to undercut Roslin’s competence as a war leader. I have to say, I’m still a little shaky on Gina and her role as politico.

Fleet!D’Anna (I don’t know what else to call her) meets with Laura and tells her she created a problem by keeping the baby a secret. She asks for exclusive access to the baby. She can show people it’s a normal child and nothing to be feared. She claims she just wants an exclusive and its incidental to her if it helps Roslin.

For me, this is where this subplot gets increasingly silly. D’Anna shows Gina how she converted her camera case into an incubator for Hera.:/ Gina doesn’t like that she calls the baby that – it offends her that she was named after a human god. D’Anna asks what her preference is and Gina tells her to “Just call her 13”. D’Anna’s response - “I like that”

Jamie’s wife! ;) She tells D’Anna she can’t see the baby. As D’Anna is about to kick up a fuss, Helo walks out and calls her a “stupid, fraking, vulture” and informs her that Hera’s dead. D’Anna actually looks stunned and upset by this news.

Lay Down Your Burdens

As Tyrol watches Cally back at work, the scene is intercut with Tyrol talking to Cavil and recounting his dream of falling. It seems we saw a lot of this, just edited differently and without Cally present.

Lee’s in bed! Listening to the news - talk of the election and a close race – as Dee gets dressed and chastises him for not yet signing some papers she couriered over. She asks him about the election and if he thinks she’ll lose. Lee says of Laura (apparently he does remember her), “She is tough and smart and willing to do whatever it takes to win…but I get the feeling she may be on the wrong side of this issue and we may be looking at president Baltar.” Gee, maybe it would have been nice had he as her advisor said something earlier? No, I’m not bitter.

Dee notes that Baltar as president is a depressing thought. (Guess that’s why she helped rig the election.) He’s been having a few of those himself recently. “Starbuck?” she asks and he says he can’t shake feeling that something’s wrong. Dee reminds him that she’s not due back for another day and that she always comes back. As he kisses her he tells her has a “Feeling that something is about to go terribly wrong.” Ok, I have two issues with this. One, Lee has this sense of eminent doom yet he’s Mr Smiley Kissy Face. And it also comes off as rather heavy handed. I was half expecting to hear Dum Dum Dum in the background as he spoke the words. The strangest thing though might be the final dialogue between the two.

Dee: “I gotta go.”
Lee: “Alright I’ll see ya.”

Wow. That just screams loving couple doesn’t it?!

Another couple that got short shrift - Tyrol and Cally. The two share a drink and he talks about how Cavil had him thinking he was a Cylon. He also informs her that they shot both (I assume both cavil models) out the airlock the night before. Cally has trouble drinking with the broken jaw and Tyrol attempts to wipe her chin, but she flinches away. Apparently her jaw doesn’t hurt that much because she kisses him. He looks shocked. She says, “What, you didn’t know?” All he can manage to do is smile and get all shy.

A montage of clips as Baltar thinks back over his relationship with Gina on his way to meet with her.

The final deleted scene…Adama tells Baltar how they believe a nuke got aboard Cloud Nine. They suspect a warhead was stolen from his lab and is perhaps the first step in coordinated Cylon attack. Adama wants to focus on internal security; Baltar wants to see people safely established on New Caprica. Once that’s accomplished they can put the tragedy behind them. Adama tells him he’s not listening. Baltar states he doesn’t have to, he’s the president.
  • Current Mood: tired tired
awesome! can't wait to get my hands on those dvds in a month or so. :)

i too had the feeling that lee's depression wasn't something new. i know ppl said that it seemed too sudden, but if you re-watch season one, then early season two, keeping in mind what happend in resurrection ship, it makes sense. lee has never been "happy". it always seemed to me like he was on the verge of some kind of breakdown. first it was his strained relationship with his father, then the guilt over having shot down the "olympic carrier". the strained relationship continues when adama learns he's roslin's advisor, and he just keeps being shoved in the middle of whatever roslin and adama are doing, like a child who always tries to make peace between his fighting parents. the shit kinda hits the fan for him when he picks roslin's side, she gives in, and his father is shot. must suck to be lee, seriously...

i realize some of the deleted scenes should stay deleted, but i do wish most eps would get the treatment pegasus got. on dvd it doesn't matter if an episode is 42 minutes, 46 or 53 minutes long. a few of those scenes really add to the characters and the overall understanding of the story-archs.

i shall shut up now. sorry 'bout the long comment.
Long comment? You saw the post. ;)

I think Lee has had (brief) moments of happiness. I think his relationship with Dee is him trying to be happy, to make the most out of a horrible situation, but we'll probably find out he's failed and still miserable. Hence the weight gain maybe?

The depression/giving up on life wasn't a shock. All people deal differently with adversity. Adama keeps pushing forward. Laura, having come so close to death, has a new found appreciation for life no matter how sucky it may be. Kara's been self-destructive all her life, turned to the bottle there for awhile, and, like Lee, hopes that being with someone will help fix things. It all makes sense for Lee, but I think the hints to it where dropped between 'Home' and RS.

And Lee's depression could have been handled well without bringing in influences we didn't know, didn't care about, and barely understood their importance. In a short time they had developed a rich history of reasons why he'd just give up, culminating in the personal betrayal he felt from his father and Laura. It could have been brilliant. Instead it's incredibly frustrating to contemplate what could have been.

I also agree with you about more extended cuts on the DVDs. Not every episode warrants extra time, 'Sacrifice' for example, but the Lee/Dee scenes in particular greatly help to explain their closeness by the end of the season and would leave us a little less bitter. ;)
i am sure he had brief moments of happiness, it's impossible not to smile from time to time, no matter how depressed, overall.

there are two reasons why i bought into the whole dead girlfriend thing: 1) often we think we know ppl, but we really don't; often we hear of someone who killed themseves and go "really? but he seemed so happy", because, basically, we only know what ppl show us. there are so many things we don't know about those who are closest to us. 2) i don't think he thought about her much until his near-death experience. he kind of pushed it down, just like kara had pushed her feelings away. gianne (or whatever her name has been), was pregnant, she "creating" life. lee has been so close to giving up his. usually near-death experiences make one wonder about the roads not taken.

now, obviously, it could have been better handled. we could have had the missing scenes instead of the pregnant girlfriend subplot, but for me, that worked too.

what made black market shine for me though was the discussion lee has with zarek. it shed a whole new light on both him, and zarek. it was short, yet brilliant.

sadly, in tv, when it comes to cutting something it's always the character stuff that gets cut. they have 42 minutes to tell a story, so everything plot related has to stay.
Thanks, I really appreciate the long breakdown of the deleted scenes.

Like you I'm often ambivalent about what I'd want them to keep and what I wouldn't. I'm glad they cut most of the Black Market stuff you described - I don't have a problem with Lee 'abandoning' a pregnant girlfriend in terms of his character; I do have a problem with it in terms of how he's behaved throughout the rest of the series. It's a huge thing to be hiding, and I don't trust that the writers planned it all along. Black Market works just fine as Lee wondering what might have been with Gianne. Then again, I don't have quite the problem with it others do (though I agree it's weak. Mostly I hate the easy out of shooting Phelan passed off as something 'gritty').

It's good to hear there was some more to back up his depression, although, oddly, I've *never* had a problem believing that. I always found his not-suicide in Ressurection Ship completely in character even if I can't quite articulate why. He holds everything together for so long, so tightly. Roslin, the symbol he risked everything for and got smacked down for (as evidenced by one of the Resistance cut scenes and his TCH discussion with Kara), makes a decision he finds unprincipled and unconscionable, and doesn't even discuss it with *him*.

I'm a not-so-closet L/L shipper, but I don't think it's romantic to note that Laura Roslin sees Lee as a valuable person without needing to resort to labels such as "son" or "Zak's brother" and I think that's powerful and important to him.

The thing I find most fascinating is that Lee goes *along* with the plan. Why? For Kara? For his father? For Laura? Again, something I find in character, but also inexplicable. So I found his "what's the point" not-suicide very poignant. But I guess I can see for others it would be different.

Anyway, sorry for going on - I should put my thoughts about Lee together on my own journal and I need a Lee icon. In the meantime, thanks for the rundown. I'm slightly sadened by the cutting of D'Anna, but mainly because I like bleach!blonde!kohl!Three than out of a desire to see the hokey camera-case-incubator.

Becka.
I don't have a problem with Lee 'abandoning' a pregnant girlfriend in terms of his character; I do have a problem with it in terms of how he's behaved throughout the rest of the series. It's a huge thing to be hiding, and I don't trust that the writers planned it all along.

I don't think they planned it at all, but it was a last minute and stupid idea. There was nothing in Lee's demeanor prior to BM that indicated he lost anyone close to him recently (besides his mother) or that he wondered about what might have been. If we had seen him just once with a longing look in his eyes after seeing a child or perhaps showing some protectiveness over Sharon's pregnancy then the Gianne thing may have been a logical revelation. I have to wonder if they cut any direct reference to a pregnancy because, in keeping it vague, you can believe that Lee had the opportunity to have a family and is plagued by regret and the what if? scenerio.

The deleted scene also makes it clear that Lee didn't really abandon her. It looks as if she informed him that she was pregnant, he expressed his fears/doubts, and she ran off. Maybe he should have run after her, but I'm willing to cut him some slack that he needed time to think and then the attacks happened.

He holds everything together for so long, so tightly. Roslin, the symbol he risked everything for and got smacked down for (as evidenced by one of the Resistance cut scenes and his TCH discussion with Kara), makes a decision he finds unprincipled and unconscionable, and doesn't even discuss it with *him*.

See, when I saw RS the reason why he chose that point in time to leave this life made sense once we were given the scene between he and Adama. His father, a man he has had huge issues with, yet still trusts and respects, announces his intention to have Cain killed. He's stunned. Then Adama proceeds to inform him that it was the president's idea. The expression on Lee's face is one of shock, horror, and devestation. He previously sacrificed everything - family, friends, career - and was willing to sacrifice his life if need be to support Laura and her ideals, thinking they were in line with his. Now he discovers she/they are not the person/people he believed them to be and is left to wonder what he is fighting for? Yeah, I totally got him choosing to just let go.

Then we got the retcon of 'Black Market' and I got frakking pissed off.

I'm a not-so-closet L/L shipper

::hugs you::

The thing I find most fascinating is that Lee goes *along* with the plan. Why? For Kara? For his father? For Laura? Again, something I find in character, but also inexplicable.

I think it was just another indication of not caring and giving up. The fight was taken out of him. He was a man alone now with his convictions. The only thing he figured he could do was help back up Kara.
Yeah, I totally got him choosing to just let go.

Then we got the retcon of 'Black Market' and I got frakking pissed off.


Wow...huh, good point. I was lucky, or perhaps daft, and read it differently. I never thought that he gave up because of the Gianne situation (but I stubbornly refuse to read it as anything other than a "what might have been" daydream).

On a low ebb after the not-suicide, I saw his behaviour as sort of self-destructive. He didn't care about his job, his ideals, he started looking for instant comfort with hookers. Despite his strong external convictions, Lee has quite a low opinion of himself and can sometimes allow himself to act in very pissy, petty ways. Of course, being Lee, he can't allow his relationship with Shevon to be simple. He starts trying to build a happy family. I saw the flashbacks to Gianne as part of a larger pattern - Lee finally, perhaps, addressing the enormous loss that occured during the original attacks. I don't think, until that point (until 2.5 in general) any of the main characters had had any chance to stop and respond to anything. I'm not a huge fan of some of the 2.5 episodes, but they do show a lot of 'falling apart in the downtime'.

I saw Shevon as a forerunner to what he's basically doing with Dee. He's lost his overarching ideals and principles (at least, he feels he's alone with them and has given up on them) so he's just desperately looking for any sort of happiness that doesn't require a lot of thought.

(Though, not being a big fan of Black Market, I think I'm probably giving it too much credit. Sadly, the more I hear from the producers, the more I think this is all a happy accident of editing constraints, and it's a very powerful arguement for why not every episode should get an extended cut. Ron Moore even said he wouldn't generally release that because it would constrain them to adhere to canon that wasn't meant for the final episodes).

Anyway. Lucky me, I guess. :)

I'm a not-so-closet L/L shipper

::hugs you::


::hugs you back::

...it's a scary, scary L/K LJ out there. I love both those characters and don't particularly mind if they hook up, but I definitely prefer them as pseudo-siblings with some dodgy undercurrents.

I think it was just another indication of not caring and giving up. The fight was taken out of him. He was a man alone now with his convictions. The only thing he figured he could do was help back up Kara.

I agree. Though I also think that Lee sometimes allows himself to behave in ways he finds reprehensible. He can get very pissy. Sort of like Kara in reverse. Kara screws up externally and physically acts out. Lee implodes. Does stuff like date a girl he knows is with another guy - I found the awkward scene where Billy finds them on Cloud Nine and Lee's not sure what to do, but sure as heck doesn't leave or do anything to *help* either, very telling and very Lee-like. He uses passivity as an excuse for poor behaviour, which his way of coping with the stresses he feels of being the only one who actually *worries* about *consequences*. It's easy to feel superior when everyone around you is acting selfish. Or perhaps I'm overanalysing.

I so need a Lee icon. And season three. I also think I'm the only person on LJ who doesn't mind Fat!Lee...

Anyway, thanks for the interesting chat.
Very interesting analysis of 'Black Market' and it will make me reevaluate when I rewatch it. I have to admit my opinon as to what it was trying to tell us was, in part, shaped by information given in interviews by Ron, Jamie, etc. And the way in which some scenes were edited made it appear as if they were trying to tie Lee's depression, suicide attempt, and the dead girlfriend together. The way you choose to look at it makes sense even if it wasn't their intent and may help me to rationalize and accept it. :)

On a low ebb after the not-suicide, I saw his behaviour as sort of self-destructive. He didn't care about his job, his ideals, he started looking for instant comfort with hookers. Despite his strong external convictions, Lee has quite a low opinion of himself and can sometimes allow himself to act in very pissy, petty ways.

I can't fathom Lee seeking to kill himself. The opportunity to leave this life behind was presented to him and he decided to take it, which is different then him coming back to Galactica and putting a gun to his head. He had a way to go without hurting, he believed, those he would leave behind.

Once back he felt trapped. He's stuck in the middle of a fight he's not sure is worth fighting any longer and backing people he's not sure are still deserving of his supprt. People he could once turn to he no longer feels he can. Yet Lee being Lee and prone to wallow in misery, those he could still talk to (Kara and Dee) he freezes out not wanting to burdon them.

At a loss as to why he's still alive, emotionally numb, and isolated from anyone he's been close to he turns a hooker to feel something, yet at the same time he sees her as a way to stay distant, to not start caring again. But Lee isn't that type of person. He needs something to fight for, to care about - he's an idealist in need of a cause. So Shevon goes from being a meaningless frak to someone (along with Paya) he can save.

I always felt Lee was rational enough to know that Shevon and Paya could not replace the 'family' he lost. I do see your point that, with a break from constant cylon attacks, there was time to reflect on the past and grieve for what was lost. Lee couldn't save Gianne or make things right with her, but he believed he could save Shevon and her daughter and prove to himself that he can be the kind of man he desires to be. Contrary to his low opinion of himself, he already often is that kind of man.

I saw Shevon as a forerunner to what he's basically doing with Dee. He's lost his overarching ideals and principles (at least, he feels he's alone with them and has given up on them) so he's just desperately looking for any sort of happiness that doesn't require a lot of thought.

ITA. Things are simple with Dee and that's both good and bad for Lee. She loves him unconditionally, has seen the good and bad in him and sticks by him. Perhaps most importantly she listens without judging him. In her he sees a chance for happiness and is trying to love her. Ultimately that isn't going to work and will only end up hurting them both.

...it's a scary, scary L/K LJ out there. I love both those characters and don't particularly mind if they hook up, but I definitely prefer them as pseudo-siblings with some dodgy undercurrents.

I like the sibling rivalry and friendship between Lee and Kara, but I just don't get the romantic ' soul mates' vibe between them. I am fortunate that those on my Flist into the ship are both sane and rational when it comes to the two. I respect their opinions and they respect my Lee/Laura fantasies. ;)

I really enjoyed this discussion. You have given me so much to think about and I'm now tempted to do a 'Black Market' write up heavily inspired by the thoughts you have given me. :)
You are better at explaining things then me, I think. But yes, I agree with your thoughts in the first section completely. Also this:

Lee couldn't save Gianne or make things right with her, but he believed he could save Shevon and her daughter and prove to himself that he can be the kind of man he desires to be.

Is an excellent way of putting it. Shevon and Paya are a way to put right what he feels he did wrong - he sees Gianne as something he did wrong - not a way to recapture some lost perfect love he's been secretly pining over. Gianne is important because of the failure he feels she represents in him, not because she was his one true love. I wonder, actually, if his relationship with her was anything like his relationship with Dee. I have very little evidence to support this, but I feel that a lot of his relationships might have been. He doesn't quite know how to react to the more active women in his life like Kara and Laura.

I really enjoyed this discussion. You have given me so much to think about and I'm now tempted to do a 'Black Market' write up heavily inspired by the thoughts you have given me. :)

Yay! Me too. I hope you do the Black Market write up. I'd really enjoy reading it. I've been meaning to do a general Lee write up for a long time, but somehow I suspect I'll never quite get around to it. It's weird. If asked about the show, I'd say that Laura Roslin is my favourite character and probably wouldn't mention Lee specifically as a favourite. But, sometimes it seems he's the character I have the most complicated thoughts about. I really hope he gets back to interacting with Roslin in season three. I think that gives him some of his best material. Allowing a lead actor to be something other than an action hero and romantic lead is...wonderful, actually.

Anyway, good luck with Black Market - if I've given you anything to help you rationalise a part of the show you dislike, I'm very glad. :)
Hi, I randomly friended you today! Hope you don't mind! It's totally because of BSG, of course!
Don't mind at all. And if you are into BSG, you came to the right place. ;-)
Wow there were no deleted scenes of Sharon at all. Well in season IIB there wasn't that much Sharon to begin with

Bob
At the end of the Adama/Laura/Tigh scene they cut to Kara talking to Sharon in her cell, but that we actually saw when the episode aired.