Erm...okay - Lee - Nyuszi

Podcast for 'Collaborators'

Hopefully I didn’t miss anything, I listened while I was at work and was jotting down notes long hand. I was shocked to find this rather interesting.


• Ron feels this may be the darkest episode they’ve ever done.

• Jammer and Duck’s roles were reversed at the suggestion of Aaron Douglas who thought Jammer was better suited for the role of collaborator. He’s been shown to be a bit weakly and could be led astray.

• The fleet lost ships in the exodus so the ships are more crowded now. Civilians are living on Galactica and they will be more ‘in your face’ in the future.

• The original opening involved someone being airlocked on the Monarch.

• The episode was to focus more heavily on other storylines. For instance, we were to see more of Baltar’s relationship with D’Anna and Caprica Six.

• In the original draft Laura did not kiss Baltar. After she makes the comment about always wanting him and he asks ‘Really?’ she takes a gun out and shoots him. Either Mary or James or both had the idea to kiss thus shocking him out of the dream.

• They felt the Cylon ship needed to be more alien, more sci-fi looking given who the Cylons are.

• Kara and Anders figured more predominately in early drafts, but their storyline as well as Baltar’s were trimmed when they decided to focus on the collaborators story.

• The Laura/Zarek storyline was very different. Laura and Adama were working together to get Zarek out of office, to take him down, and rest control from him. In a final act to spite them it’s he that pardons everyone and calls for reconciliation. And Zarek did not originally know about The Circle or sanction it, but approved of it once he became aware of it.

• The Gaeta storyline was a bit different with earlier attempts made to grab him and him getting away. Tigh is brought into The Circle to help capture him and at the end it’s he that saves Gaeta more so then Tyrol.

• It was decided to have Tigh there from the start because he exacted the same price from his wife.

• Tigh was supposed to be drunk in CIC. Michael Hogan did not want to portray him as such because he didn’t want an excuse for Tigh’s behavior – he didn’t want anyone to think it was just the alcohol talking. The scene shows the beginning of a Tigh/Adama estrangement and Tigh’s complete inability to fit in the command structure now.

• Showing The Circle meeting was a later addition. They wanted to show that these weren’t crazy people. The members took what they were doing to heart, that they were a jury, and that it was important they believe what they were doing was just and the right thing to do. It was also important that they not wear their uniforms because, while the president gave them authority, this was not a military operation.

• The mood on the Cylon set is meant to be more surreal and Ron knows the sets will never be as cool as what our minds eye imagines.

• The Lee/Adama scene was longer. We see the two walking through the crowded corridors filled with civilian refugees, some sleeping in the halls, talking about refugee and supply problems and Lee comments on how it’s nicer to have a noisy, crowded ship again. Then we pick up the conversation in Adama’s quarters. BTW, Ron really likes the “keep jumping” beat. Ass.

• Who was going to believe Gaeta’s story? No one. He was dammed because he worked for Baltar.

• Baltar’s, “I probably should have started with that” was James’ contribution and Ron found it too funny to leave out.

• The scenes between Kara and Anders and The Circle were not originally intercut. Kara was supposed to go back in after the breakup. Katee was in the shots with Tigh, Tyrol, and the others and they had to do quite a bit of work to cut her out. Ron is still dissatisfied with the breakup scene, but it was more melodramatic in earlier drafts.

• Anders has come a long way and is now part of the family. It’s not the last time we see him.

• As originally written, Gaeta did beg for his life but Alessandro said Gaeta would realize the futility of begging.

• There were nightmare sequences written for Kara that were cut because they weren’t working. Ron wished they could have shown her pain more; he’s not feeling it as strongly as he would like.

• Tory played a major role in events in the episode, but her scenes got cut for time. I’m kind of glad they did since it would have changed my feelings on her *a lot*. In the scene with Laura, Adama, and Zarek, Laura is given the name of the woman The Circle had killed on the other ship. The name sounds familiar to her and she realizes she has a picture of her which she goes to get out of her journal. It’s missing. Tory took it and gave it to Zarek who, in turn, gave it to The Circle. Tory was the linchpin of the operation. Tory is shattered by the revelation. In the scene that would have followed, but was moved to Exodus (the one in which she and Laura discuss Hera) Tory went on to tell Laura she was sorry she betrayed her, but that she wanted all those people to die and didn’t want any more trials, etc. Hence the crying.

• Adama immediately getting up and applauding was to show he wholeheartedly supports and respects what Laura is doing. Eh. I didn’t quite get that vibe.
  • Current Mood: geeky geeky
"Ron feels this may be the darkest episode they’ve ever done."

For me, the episodes showing what the Pegasus crew did to Gina and the near-rape of Sharon win this dubious honor.

Ron needs to let the actors do all, or at least most of, the writing. ;) At least he takes suggestions sometimes.

I'm glad they didn't do the stuff with Tory. Having it be Zarek is better, I think.

I'm glad they're keeping Anders.
For me, the episodes showing what the Pegasus crew did to Gina and the near-rape of Sharon win this dubious honor.

I think I'd agree with you on that. I found that storyline far more disturbing. I thought perhaps 'Collaborators' didn't have the effect on me that Ron thinks it should be having on people because I was spoiled, but, regardless, people being punished for treason and people seeking vengeance weren't shocking ideas for me given the situation.

I'll give Ron credit for allowing the actors so much input on the show it's almost always worked to the shows benefit. He's the anti-Joss in that respect. ;)

Who'd of thunk we'd be happy Anders was staying around?
Ron's comments make me like the episode even less. Not for what they left out, but because what Ron thinks he's showing/doing is so obviously not what I'm seeing. I just don't get that Kara's pain was *worse* than anyone else's, and I think I'm supposed to. I know she's Ron's IT girl, but I think the suffering of other people - especially as Kara is reacting as she *always* does - hits me harder. Conner's loss of his son seems more chilling and affecting to me than Kara's dealing with Leoben, especially given how he didn't break her until he brought in Kasey.

Also, from the things that he says about the Adama scene and how Gaeta's scene was originally written, I wonder if he even knows his own characters. Also, I'm glad that they didn't use Tory as the impetus for The Circle. I like Tory, and while I think she's hard-assed and tough, I don't know that I see her as that person. I like having Zarek, in his own twisted moral way, be the soul source for the whole thing.
Well, far be it from me to defend RDM, but. ;) Kara has been tortured, psychologically if not physically; I don't think that what Leoben did to her is that far from rape, drawn out over several months. I'm not sure that we're supposed to think that what she's been through is worse than what anyone else has been through, but I do think that torture would leave different scars than loss. I don't know; it was really hard for me to watch Kara in this episode, in a way it hasn't been before. We've definitely seen her lash out (usually at Lee) when she's hurt or scared, but not like this--she was pretty sadistic with Gaeta, and we've seen her be thoughtless before, but this is a whole other level. So the basic pattern of her reaction is the same, but the way it's twisted and the sheer rage behind it feels pretty different to me. Then again, it's not exactly a huge secret that I'm a Kara fan, so. :)

And I do appreciate that they seem to have learned from the mistakes of last season in terms of glossing over traumatic events in the characters' lives--it seems to me like everyone is dealing pretty heavily with the scars of the occupation and the war, and hard as it is to watch, I think it's better storytelling.

I agree about Tory vs. Zarek, though--I think it worked much better as it aired.
I don't disagree that Kara has been through a traumatic event. The scene from the premiere with her sitting there calmly eating after killing Leoben was chilling and I actually liked Kara again in a way I hadn't for a while. What bothers me is that I feel from things I see in the episode and things I hear from Ron that Kara's suffering *more*, and I don't think that's a fair assessment. I can see that she's broken and that she's lashing out in self defense, but her actions didn't seem that much more extreme to me than we've seen in the past other than to target someone else rather than someone she loves. Of course, she's pushed away everyone she loves at this point, so I would assume that any target is one that will do.

I think if, as it goes on, we see that Kara's healing from the scars Leoben inflicted in those four months, I'll look back on this much more charitably, but what I feel in watching this is that Kara's pain stems from those few days with Kasey and not from the tortures she suffered prior. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong, and I'm sure my view of Kara is colored by her actions in the last half of S2. I'd love to see her grow from this though, as I don't think she's managed to do from any of the other things that have put her back to the wall.

I think that the scars of the occupation are going to be fun to watch heal and get ripped off again and again, and I hope that things continue in the vein that they are - showing them dealing with what they've gone through. No one is the same. What we find that we do in extreme situations defines us, and I hope that as we'll see the definitions of the characters that we like and love changed and mutated and transformed, and yet still somehow intrinsically *them*.
When he was talking about Tory's edited scenes I really thought he was going to say that they were cut because they didn't work or didn't fit with the character and then he revealed it was only due to length. Thank God they ran long! Yeah, Tory's tough, but we've seen nothing from her that would indicate that she'd be out for vengeance lto the extent she would betray Laura, not to mention possibly get her implicated in all this. If Ron wanted to go that way with the character he should have showed us more of her on New Caprica.

I'm not sure he believes that Kara's pain is worse than anyone else's. He seemed to put she and Tigh on equal footing in that department. He just didn't feel her pain came through as much as he thought it should have. I don't feel that we needed to see anymore. Anyone whose watched the past four eps know how damaged she is right now and anyone whose watched the past three years knows she bottles up her pain until it explodes out of her, usually violently. What's frustrating now is that she knows she's doing it, but is taking no steps to do anything about it.

Great icon btw. :)
Adama immediately getting up and applauding was to show he wholeheartedly supports and respects what Laura is doing. Eh. I didn’t quite get that vibe.

I got that it was intended that way, but Adama seemed rather unenthusiastic at best.
Yeah, I think the disconnect for me is in EJO's performance. When Laura first announces her decision he turns away and looks at the floor. Then when he gets up to applaud he looks very tense. It just didn't scream 'I completely support you' to me.
Very interesting! Thanks for transcribing.

Michael Hogan did not want to portray him as such because he didn’t want an excuse for Tigh’s behavior – he didn’t want anyone to think it was just the alcohol talking.
That's great. I wondered during the scene if he was drunk--it seemed possible, but I was glad they'd left it ambiguous, so I was very interested to read that.

I think I'm glad they cut the Kara-nightmares. I didn't need that. There was enough pain in this ep, imo!
A lot of actors don't have the courage to be dislikeable (is that a word?) They'll be the character you love to hate, or the complicated villain (like Baltar). But to show all the warts without playing for sympathy? It's rare. Hogan has that courage in spades, imo. I admire him immensely.
He seemed like he might have been a little hung over which would definitely be in character and I could see him drinking himself to sleep trying to avoid thinking about Ellen. However, I have to agree with MH that it needed to be clear that Tigh's words and actions were his and not alcohol fueled. And Adama needs not to have that as a way to excuse his behavior.
I can't even express how happy I am that they allow the actors to have input into how these things are played. Collaborators is so much stronger for the input of Aaron, Michael, and Alessandro. And James' addition of that line was just so perfect, it would have been idiotic to cut it. Hee.

• Anders has come a long way and is now part of the family. It’s not the last time we see him.

WooHOO! I've really been enjoying Sam, so it makes me happy that he's a "part of the family," whether he's with Kara or not. :D
Who thought the day would come when we'd be excited by Anders sticking around?!

I agree the show is much better for the input of the actors. It's rare when I don't agree with something they've suggested that made it in. Now if only Ron would listen to Jamie more. ;p
Woah, this does sound really interesting.

I'm ambivalent about the Zarek plot. I'm generally pleased it played out as it did on screen, because my issues with Roslin's method of re-election aside (and - to cross-post-discuss! - I agree that this is currenty "what the fleet wants," but I still think it's dodgy), I'd have a far larger problem with her actively scheming to withdraw military support along with Adama and force his hand. Then again, I'm still not entirely convinced there was enough justification for Zarek to step down as easily as he did; not that I can't buy it, just that it raises questions. And I really like the idea of him forgiving everyone in a vicious parting blow - like, the right action for all the wrong reasons!

Sooo, yeah, I don't with that *had* happened, but I enjoy the idea as an alternate reality. ;)

Also I agree about Tory. Very much changes the motivations of her character and I like her character much better like this. On the other hand, this does explain why she was quite so upset during that scene at the end of Occupation/Precipice and her expression during the swearing in. I hope that they continue with the character that's accidentally been created by these cuts (who I quite like) as opposed to the character as she was originally conceived, who was much more ruthless and vicious - see Downloaded & LDYB. The actions described in the podcast totally fit Tory 1.0, but I much prefer Tory 2.0. Yay for Sensitive!Tory!

(Although, again, a certain twisted beauty to the idea that it was Roslin's meticulous recording of history on New Caprica that enabled the Circle to prosecute anyone at all. While I'm glad Tory wasn't the thief, I do wish that it had somehow been revealed a lot of the names of the collaborators came from Roslin's records.)

As always, thanks for the transcript. :)
I'd have a far larger problem with her actively scheming to withdraw military support along with Adama and force his hand. Then again, I'm still not entirely convinced there was enough justification for Zarek to step down as easily as he did; not that I can't buy it, just that it raises questions.

I can see Adama telling Zarek not to expect his support (which is actually dumb since what? He's going to refuse to fight the Cylons if they show up just to make him look bad?) and Laura going along with it. But there is a difference between making a threat and actively doing something to interfer with Zarek's presidency and I don't see either going that far to the potential detriment of the fleet.

I still haven't put my finger on exactly why, but I just didn't feel that Zarek wanted the presidency. He was much too accomodating and almost eager to see Laura reinstated. And it seemed to me it went well beyond Adama's threats or fear of what others in the fleet might do to him polotically or personally.

On the other hand, this does explain why she was quite so upset during that scene at the end of Occupation/Precipice and her expression during the swearing in.

Tory being so upset in 'Exodus Pt 2' seemed to be the result of her feeling she had failed Laura in not doing enough to ensure Hera's safety. Now we learn her emotions were a result of her being sorry she bterayed Laura, yet, that is still an expression of failure and, ultimately, her reaction would have been the same either way. This is a rare occassion were the editing doesn't really effect the reading of the scene.

I hope that they continue with the character that's accidentally been created by these cuts (who I quite like) as opposed to the character as she was originally conceived, who was much more ruthless and vicious - see Downloaded & LDYB. The actions described in the podcast totally fit Tory 1.0, but I much prefer Tory 2.0.

Me too. But if they did write Tory in future eps as having betrayed Luara and Laura no longer trusting her as she once did than maybe Laura will look for support from a former trusted advisor who no longer has a ship to command? ;)