Asta 2

Podcast for...the one with the really long title


For the few who don't know, the title is a reference to the Cheers song.

This was suppose to be their "comedy episode", an attempt to do something lighter. The last time they did a comedic episode ('Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down') they also handed it to EJO to direct. Through the process of working through ep storylines, scenes, and performances it kept getting darker and darker. Yet, they still thought of it as light, fun-filled episode until they saw the final cut. The network was very surprised since this had been sold as a lighter episode . They never intended to turn it as dark as it turned out to be.

When they blew up Cloud Nine they already knew they would eventually establish a new bar - a place for everyone to relax and enjoy themselves. Since they brought more civilians aboard Galactica and people were doubling up they felt it was natural to build bar on Galactica instead of another ship that they would need to make up excuses to go to. The bar will be seen again this season and in season 4 (assuming there is one).

Even though this was once intended as a lighter episode, they always had the Baltar torture storyline. (That would have been an odd mix.) The lighter aspect was to be courtesy of Lee. They saw him as Milo from 'Catch 22' (I've only seen the film once so I'm not sure about the comparison) or Hawkeye in that episode of MASH where he has a hole in his boot and he must wheel and deal and trade to get new boot. Lee was to do the same to get people to help build the bar and then to save the bar (according to the sides an algae processing facility was to be set up on the same site as the bar). The story never quite gelled for Ron and he felt they couldn’t ignore events in the previous two-parter and what was going on with the marriages and relationships. So they moved it further in that direction and it became more about the problems in the marriages and heavier types of issues.

That Baltar was not watched 24 hours a day, allowing for the attempted suicide, was a conceit to make the show work.

The bar was originally named Why Not before becoming Joe’s.

The Tyrol/Lee friendship (?) formed presumably because as chief and CAG they see each other a lot and would talk quite a bit.

They dealt more with the marriage than in previous episodes. There is a firmer handle on the character of Lee and where he was going. (REALLY?) And they worked here to set up his arc for the rest of the season. (I'm trying to be encouraged by this.) Jamie had a great deal to do with molding the storyline. (I'm still debating whether that is a good thing or bad thing.) And the groundwork with Lee and Dee here will platform with where they go at the end of the season. (Whatever that means.)

EJO’s direction and the way the show is cut – he went for the dramatic jugular in almost every scene, pushing the actors and nature of show. There were more close-ups and more charged emotion, with Laura in particular. Mary was pushed in a direction she wasn’t certain she wanted to go.

Originally, there was more of Head Six though he didn't elaborate on that.

What is Baltar’s guilt? There was a whole backstory started in this episode that was ultimately dropped because it won’t be used in the trial. (More on that in a bit.)

In earlier drafts Baltar was physically beaten by Tigh, but they figured they had already physically tortured him aboard the basestar.

There was more in the script about Adama using drugs like the ones they used on Baltar on prisoners in the past.

Having so much inter-cutting of the storylines was EJO's idea and more dramatic than they normally do.

Anders is turning out to be more interesting than anyone thought he would be when the character was created. He's not just a jock, he has layers. He's aware of Kara's relationship with Lee and that "she is special". They thought about having Anders become a marine or go into flight training, but they felt they weren't exploring new ground, it took up time, and it didn’t feel right.

Sidenote: Terry Moore came into the room at this point and screamed at him, "Are you smoking in here?" He's not suppose to smoke in the house. It was amusing.

Ron talked about understanding the circumstances under which Dee decided to marry Lee. He referred once again to the cut scene in UB in which she talks to Lee about living for now, that she would have him until Kara came back into his life, and that, until then, she would marry him. Lee protests that his relationship with Kara is history, but Dee is wiser and she knows the truth. She went into the marriage with her eyes wide open. (OK, at this point I realize Ron has no clue as to what he has done to Dee and how she is coming across on screen. Saying she had her eyes wide open and she chose to marry a man she believed was in love with another woman only portrays her as weak and pathetic. Yes, I understand that all of them live with the belief that their lives could end at any moment and that they should take what happiness they can, but how can you be happy living in another woman's shadow and being second choice? Oh, right, she loved him so damn much and was lucky to have him. This makes no sense! Sorry, I had to vent. ;)

It seems all the Bambers get screwed by the show. Mrs Bamber, AKA Kerry Norton, AKA Nurse Ishay, had a much bigger role. She was tending to Baltar, in his cell and in the med bay. We were to see her mounting disgust with what was going on and having ethical problems with the way he was being treated. It drives her to say she can’t do it anymore, can't be a part of it, and she ends up walking out during the torture sequence. It might have been after she knocks over the tray, Ron wasn't certain. At the end of the episode, there was a public announcement that Baltar had returned to the fleet. The information was leaked to the press by her. They closed at the bar with a shot of her sitting there and reacting to the information. The bulk of the footage was cut for time, but the shot at the bar remained until they realized they couldn't sell it because so much of the story had been cut back.

The first scene with Kara and Anders was suppose to be much later in the show. It was swapped to set up the problems with Lee.

The tank of water and interrogation – EJO and Michael Taylor largely came up with it.

Much of the episode was rewritten because of decisions made on subsequent episodes.

Lee losing his wedding ring was shot much later. The scene had been cut before filming because they knew they were running long, but without the sequence you never had the beat where he made his choice. You needed to see his desperation, what the marriage meant to him, and the scene brings it all in focus at last. (How can you be sloppy drunk and focus? They only thing it showed me is that Jamie sucks at playing drunk and his ship mates are no help.)

Inter-cutting Baltar and Gaeta with Lee and Dee was EJO’s idea.

There was a discussion with the staff and Jamie about Lee's marriage and where it would go. Would they stay together or not? Would he let go of her? At one point they discussed Lee going back to Kara just as she opted to go back with Sam and then they tried it the other way. The structures were deemed too cute. (OMG, it could have been worse!)

The edited Laura and Caprica scene - it was to be what pushed Laura to give Baltar a trial. It was lost because of time and they felt they didn’t have to go there to justify that once Laura had decided not to kill him that there were enough issues to warrant a trial.

Ron realizes now they underplayed Kara’s side of things. They didn't provide enough material for her getting back together with Anders - showing that she had made a decision to stay with Anders.

There were allusions to another matter that would figure prominently in trial. Back on New Caprica, the Sagittarans (sp?) were treated differently. They were a colony other colonies weren’t too fond of. They weren't exactly victims of prejudice, but they were treated differently. There was something that happened to directly nail Baltar on. There were witnesses to him killing somebody. Gaeta has guilt about what happened and coupled with Gaeta's threats to implicate him in something he had nothing to do with, it prompted him to attack Baltar. This was all developed more in subsequent episodes and when the storyline was dropped, they had to go back and excise the subplot.

The staging of the scene with Laura, Adama, et al is setting up a revelation for Laura later in the season – foreshadowing events. (I watched the scene again and no clue.)
  • Current Mood: tired tired
You skipped the best part.

Ron's pronounciation of "Kerry". As in "Carrr-ee". Kinda like his wacky way of saying Kara. I realize she is Brittish but he sounds like a dumbass saying it.

I really hope he doesn't say it like that in real life. It's rude.
That was too bizarre for me to even take the time and try to explain. Does he really think Kerry sounds all that different with a British accent? Since I recently heard Jamie say his wife's name I'm going with his pronunciation. ;)
I love Mary and she usually nails ever moment she's on screen so when she started screaming like that and totally losing it it felt very off to me. A moment of her losing her temper? Sure, we've seen that before, but this was excessive to the point I wanted to turn my sound down! It took me out of a very important moment in the episode.

Then I thought maybe the point was to have her act over the top because Laura was acting. When the comment was made that Baltar must have known she was bluffing I thought "I knew!" because of the way she was carrying on. When she blows people out of airlocks there is an eary calm about her, not what we saw.
The line about "that didn't work" is the only thing that saved that scene for me. I was in agony when she was shrieking. It was completely unbelievable.
To me this podcast simply sums up that they have no idea what they're doing, they have no idea where they're going and they have no idea what to do with their characters or how to develop them.

I'm going to curl up with the mini, S1 and S2.0 and pretend the rest never happened.
I think the problem is they do have ideas - just too damn many of them! They have so many storylines they want to delve into, plus they have a massive cast and seem to feel like they need to write a storyline for every one of them. I thought the nurse Ishay subplot sounded very interesting, but she's been in only a few episodes and in some cases it's been blink and you missed her. Other than she's Jamie's wife, why would you think to give her a subplot? And I love Helo and Tyrol, but Helo was suppose to die in the mini, Tyrol was suppose to be a guy in the background, and you've elevated them both to having key roles in the series. And writing a whole storyline for D'Anna while Six/Tricia gets marganilized? The show really needs to start focusing and though I pretty much love every character, they need to thin the heard.
Well, by putting Baltar on the baseship, they further fractured the show, which didn't help either. The thing they've not learned - that they have done well in the past - is that sometimes a character can do more in a few seconds of screen time than as the major focus of a story. They've managed to do that with Tigh and Cottle - background until they're *needed*, but lately they've lost the ability to do it with others.

The other thing is that they don't know how to use their characters effectively. You mention the marginalizing of six - which they did for the stunt casting (not that I think Lawless helped their ratings overmuch). You mentioned the other instances and it just made me think that they sometimes do get it right - Tyrol's role in EoJ/Rapture (?) was perfectly done. There wasn't too much focus on him, but for that episode he was a key player. The same with Helo in some circumstances - his interactions with Sharon and even in the one from your icon (I suck at titles, I apologize) - as WTF-y as that episode and it's (non)aftermath were - he came forward and had a significant role that fit with his characterization. I don't mind that, and applaud it as it's how an ensemble is supposed to work.

My issues lie with Lee in the largest regard because he's inconsistent. They use him to fill in whatever gaps they need in a characterization, and he's never the same Lee twice. Before this season, I've bought most of what they tried to sell, as for the most part it fit in with how I saw Lee. And, mind you, I'm more than happy to have Lee be flawed and fucked up and have never put him in the "big damn hero" category of infallibility and/or taking complete responsibility for actions, but this last portrayal of him was too much for me. Even my boss, who watches in a totally different non-fannish way than I do, said to me yesterday "Um, who were those people on Galactica the other night?"

I *want* to still love the show, and I keep telling myself the stuff I've heard about the end of the season will make it better, will get it back on track, but really, I feel like I might have been pushed too far away to ever trust it enough again. OMG. Ron Moore is the new Joss Whedon of my life.
I actually have more thoughts on Lee triggered by your thoughts and a couple of other posts I've read so I think I shall refrain from going into those thoughts here and save them for the Epiphany Post Pt 2. ;) Plus I still need to talk about other aspects of the ep. Though I have to say I still love that the show can generate so much fascinating discussion.
Looking forward to your thoughts. It is great that the show does - for good or bad - keep us talking, though I wish that it was more with excitement than with trying to understand and figure out and rationalize.
I cannot tell you how happy I am that they did not go the "missed connection" route with the quadrangle. I think the way it played made sense for all of the characters except Dee.

All of this promise of storylines paying off in the rest of this season has me excited though.
When I heard him mention the 'missed connection' idea I may have actually gagged. ;) That's a classic soap opera move. Lee and Kara may not have made the right choices (time will tell), but they made *a* choice as opposed to just missing out on what they wanted and then ended up with thier spouse by default. I think that may have made them look even more sad and pathetic.

I'm actually curious to know what the are doing with Lee. I know something that happens with him at the very end of the season, but it sounds like there may be more build up to that then I expected.
Yes, I understand that all of them live with the belief that their lives could end at any moment and that they should take what happiness they can, but how can you be happy living in another woman's shadow and being second choice? Oh, right, she loved him so damn much and was lucky to have him. This makes no sense! Sorry, I had to vent. ;)

No need to be sorry, I was ranting through the entire episode! ;)
Ya know, I still don't know how I feel about the ep. I don't love it, I don't hate it, it just leaves me with a very odd feeling.
Neither do I; there was so much of it that was just plain weird, the least of which involved Baltar.
This was suppose to be their "comedy episode", an attempt to do something lighter.

The characterization was kind of laughable.

the groundwork with Lee and Dee here will platform with where they go at the end of the season

Place your bets on pregnancy NOW.

I realize Ron has no clue as to what he has done to Dee

He needs to let someone (anyone?) vet all scenes that feature female characters.

The nurse storyline could have been good. Too bad they cut it.
I suppose pregnancy is a possability, but that didn't jump to my mind. Assuming there is a season 4, would they want to have Dee pregnant throughout most of the season? The promos have stated someone will die. What if Lee has recommitted to the marriage and then Dee ends up dying? That could send him into some interesting directions. Or maybe we find out he can't get over Kara and Dee finally has enough and walks out? Or maybe Lee finally admits he's lying to himself?

The nurse storyline could have been interesting, but considering they are already ignoring members of the main cast (Six, Tigh, Laura until this week) why write for a day player even if she is Jamie's wife?
They dealt more with the marriage than in previous episodes. There is a firmer handle on the character of Lee and where he was going. (REALLY?) And they worked here to set up his arc for the rest of the season. (I'm trying to be encouraged by this.) Jamie had a great deal to do with molding the storyline. (I'm still debating whether that is a good thing or bad thing.) And the groundwork with Lee and Dee here will platform with where they go at the end of the season. (Whatever that means.)

Okay, now I am officially scared.

Ron realizes now they underplayed Kara’s side of things. They didn't provide enough material for her getting back together with Anders - showing that she had made a decision to stay with Anders.

Ironically, even with the underplaying, I feel like I have a much better grip on why she made the choices she did, because they fit in a framework of hesitancy to seize true happiness and belief that she's not worthy and/or will doom the ones she loves. All the time spent on establishing Lee and Dee's motivations somehow didn't give me anything like that grip on what's going on with them. On the other hand, I'm glad they've decided they can do interesting things with Anders, because I think they're right about that.


I agree about having a better understanding regarding Kara's choice or non-choice depending how you see it. Like I said in my other post, I now understand where Lee is coming from, but I had to sit down and really think about it whereas Kara's actions just made sense to me.
how can you be happy living in another woman's shadow and being second choice?
Answer: If you believe that what is most important is not to be the first choice, but to be the final choice. After all, being "first" just means that you get replaced by someone else later.
Dee certainly knew full well she was taking a gamble in accepting Lee's proposal, and she admits it was naive, but not pathetic. Kara was out of Lee's life for the many months after he proposed to her, and then the occupation occurred and it appeared that the entire colony was lost. So, for the large majority of their time together it must have appeared to Dee that her gamble paid off and she made the right call by not wasting whatever time she and Lee might have. Only after UB did it appear that Lee's delusions about Kara would still be a factor after all. But that too turned out to be only a temporary obstacle, and Lee has now reconfirmed his "final" choice...Dee. So she did make the right gamble after all.

"It seems all the Bambers get screwed by the show."
I'm bummed that Kerry's part was trimmed out so much, but how did Jamie get screwed? He was instrumental in the development of his character in this episode, and indications are that Lee's added troubles this season have been in part by his request. Lee's previous image as the show's White Knight has been problematic for the writers and was quite an inhibiting factor in getting Lee involved in the show's juicier story lines. By tarnishing Lee's image up a little they can actually do more with him than they have before. In fact, they have paid much more attention to Lee's emotional journeys in season 3 than they did in prevous seasons, and I see that as a definite improvement.
After all, being "first" just means that you get replaced by someone else later.

I know a few folks married to their high school sweethearts that would disagree with you. ;)

As for Jamie being screwed, you have a more optimistic take on his character's development than I do. And I think there were ways to bring him into storylines and tarnish his image without all the romantic entanglement mess.
Being **both** first AND **final** is certainly the most preferrable state, but if it's just one OR the other...which I'm sure you'd agree is by FAR the more common situation...then *final* is by far the better state.

And given that Lee's commitment-phobia and delusions for Kara are the predominant canon chinks in Lee's otherwise shining armor it makes sense that that those are the weaknesses that the writers chose to exploit. Besides, the toxic situation between Lee and Kara has been lingering since the mini-series, it needed to be resolved, and they couldn't very well resolve it overnight. If they'd handled such a long-standing issue in a simplistic and tidy manner then THAT would have been an example of neglect upon all the characters involved...and closer to repeating the kind of neglect that the writers admit to having with the same characters in season 2 (especially Lee).
There is a firmer handle on the character of Lee and where he was going. (REALLY?) And they worked here to set up his arc for the rest of the season. (I'm trying to be encouraged by this.)
Oh, I AM encouraged by that! *bounces*

Jamie had a great deal to do with molding the storyline. (I'm still debating whether that is a good thing or bad thing.)
I vote good! I'm playing optimist! I've always thought he had an excellent thinky grasp of his character. Plus, I'm just glad for him that they're listening to him.

The structures were deemed too cute. (OMG, it could have been worse!)
Yes. Yes, it could have been a LOT worse. I'd already thought that through, I must say, so perhaps part of the reason I didn't hate hate hate this development is that it was better than some things I'd imagined.

A lot of the rest of this podcast is just mysterious and odd to me. *frowns* Hell, they do a LOT of hacking around with plots and subplots and rewriting, don't they!
The staging of the scene with Laura, Adama, et al is setting up a revelation for Laura later in the season – foreshadowing events. (I watched the scene again and no clue.)

The first thing I thought of was her cancer coming back. She was laying down like she was when she was dying. The staging for that was all weird if you think about it... why was Laura lying on Adama's bed? She could have easily been slumped on his comfy couch.
The bed thing was just weird. Ok, yes, they are friends now, but I have male friends and I wouldn't think about lying down in their bed while having a talk. I have to think that was EJO's call. If the show was to imply something going on between them I think they would have approached it as they did in UB with her leaning her head on his shoulder or, more explicitly, laying down together, but this felt as if he may have wanted to hint at something.

I've seen people theorize that Laura's cancer may come back. I've always questioned Hera's blood being a cure. Perhaps Laura simply went into remission and now the question becomes how do they treat it? Through more traditional means or is she forced to go to Sharon and ask for Hera to be used over and over again? That would be an interesting scene.
Ooh, I hadn't considered the implications of the cancer coming back. Having to ask for Sharon/Helo's help would be interesting as the two of them are now supposedly officers in good standing and so should be able to refuse. Is that an order Adama could really give?

I don't see Helo/Sharon helping the president out willingly.

Now you're making me hope the cancer does come back... *feels evil*