Asta 2

The Son Also Rises

If you don’t know my feelings on this episode, you really don’t know me. ;)



The Lee/Anders scenes, in addition to launching many fan fics, were very nicely done. I’ve always felt that they could be friends if not for Kara. Now Kara is the one who brings them together. They understand how much pain the other is in and instead of having one of their usual pissing contests over who loved her more, they are taking a remarkably mature attitude to accept how much they both meant to her, she to them, and they support each other in their time of grief. And for Anders Lee is the closest connection he has left to Kara. His, “I’ll see you around” seemed like a genuine hope that they would stay in touch.

I got Lee not wanting to put that picture of Kara up on the wall. Once he does that it means she’s really gone and he’ll have to let go and move on. Anders was going through the same sort of semi-denial, but whereas Lee was internalizing his pain, Anders made a much more public show of emotion.

My one fear for this episode was that we wouldn’t get any signs of the depth of Lee’s grief. I thought we’d see Lee bury the feelings deep, focus on his work whether it be as CAG or assisting Lampkin. And he did do that to an extent, yet he seemed just a bit emotionally healthier than I expected him to be. He was trying to resume his life and the daily activities that go with it, but I didn’t get the sense that he was pretending that everything was normal and OK. Yes, a flood of emotion is waiting to come out, I can sense it, but if he’s hiding feelings from others, at least he isn’t hiding them from himself.

Lampkin manipulated Lee to his advantage, but I see it as a positive thing for Lee. Lee was finally allowed an outlet. He was able to sit down and talk about himself for a change. And the childhood memories of his grandfather led to a nice revelation that while Lee may respect his grandfather in many ways, he hates that he chose to defend the worst of the worst and be ostracized for it. Perhaps it’s what is holding him back now. His idealistic beliefs haven’t made him many friends and have often put him at odds with his father. He’s worked hard to get to the place of respect he is at now and even faltering a little as he did in the pilot’s briefing cost him something.

I am getting frustrated with Adama being the worst father ever. I actually sided with him when he grounded Lee because Lee’s lack of focus could have hurt him or others. Adama could see that Lee was still troubled by Kara’s death, so did he try and talk to him about it? No, he strips Lee of his position as CAG, the one thing that is centering him and providing him with a sense of identity. Then he assigns him to a job that perhaps he isn’t suited for and berates him for failing at it. Which probably caused Lee to tune out the fear in Adama’s voice as he states, “You could have died”. Lee is all Adama has left, he doesn’t want to lose him, yet every action he takes only succeeds in pushing him further away.

I’m also dumbstruck by Adama’s cluelessness as to the depth of Lee’s suffering. Maybe Lee should tell Adama why he feels his pain greater because as Lee put it so well, “You have no fraking idea”. But the look of devastation on New Caprica, Kara and Lee beating each other bloody, Lee’s marital problems are all pretty big signs that Lee and Kara were more than just buddies. Of course, Adama chose to be oblivious to his wife being a alcoholic shrew who abused their sons, so why not keep the blinders on and not have to deal with other people’s problems?

I have to say, this is the first episode in awhile in which the dialogue really stuck with me. Two lines in particular I felt spoke volumes. “You’ve had enough stolen from you already.” - was Lampkin just referring to the loss of friends and family or does he realize that Lee feels as if he’s had his life taken from him? Intellectually, Lee knows that the Cylons are responsible for him being trapped in the military, but, emotionally, I think he still blames his father. He joined looking for love and acceptance from his father and after both the sacrifices he’s made and all of his successes he still hasn’t heard what he so badly wants to hear. Which leads us to…”see me or see someone else.” And I think it’s finally hitting Lee that his father has never seen him. Or when he has seen him, as in KLG, Adama dismisses it as an act of rebellion and takes it personally. When Lee once again challenges his father by disobeying an order, Adama does what he always does - walks away with a disgusted look instead of trying to talk to the man in front of him.

Some random observations…

Kara’s birthday card was both funny and heartbreaking.

“Yeah, well maybe you should take a rest.” Oh, Lee, I empathize, but don’t sound like a bratty twelve year old, OK?

I think it’s safe to say that Baltar is in love with the Six in his head and not so much Caprica. They need to get to her? It broke my heart when she asked, “Did he ask about me?” And I love how Lampkin was able to use Baltar’s words and spin the truth of them to get Caprica back on their side.

Lee was smiling in the last scene with Lampkin. It’s been so long since he’s had an easy, relaxed conversation like that. And if circumstances were different I’d be writing a fic on how the gets the glasses back to the president. ;)

Captain Kelly? That may have had more of an impact if this wasn’t like the forth time we had seen him in three years.

It struck me that half of Lee’s role was to react what was going on around him. The fact that I could read every thought and emotion clearly is a testament to Jamie’s acting ability.
  • Current Mood: pleased pleased
I loved Lee's asking his father "Is that an order?" the second time. Just the anger in it, the *need* for his father to see him as he is, who he is just broke me a lot. There were a lot of things that were painful in this, but pain and loss weren't the only emotions. There was a fabulous balance in each of them, and I was most pleased. Yay!

Also? Jamie is pretty.
That was a really powerful moment. Throughout the episode, you could see Lee's feelinings of anger and resentment towards Adama building. And when he spits out through clenched teeth, "Is that an order?" you could tell he wanted it to be an order. He wanted Adama to once again put him in the role of soldier. My interpretation was that Lee would finally push back and let go of some of what he had bottled up if he felt trapped. But Adama doesn't want confrontation, doesn't want to talk about Lee and his feelings, so he just relents and walks away, leaving Lee with what he wants, but also seething.
With Kara, and this may sound a bit horrible, I agree there's no bottled-up-in-denial grief. I see pain and grief, sure, but most of all resignation. She's gone, the whole mess is out of his hands now, the possibility that he could be with her, that she might love him, all the confusion she brought him is gone. For him, I think, as hard as it is, it's easier to deal with her dead. He can put her on a pedastal, remember her the way he wants to, forgive her if he wants to, etc, etc. The situation with her is clearer-cut than it's ever been. It's sad, in a way.

I loved how the camera kept drifting back to Lee during the interview scenes. Heh :)
I think there was a lot of resignation in Lee. She's gone, he never had the relationship he wanted with her, he has regrets, but he knows he has to find a way to move on. I do think focusing on Baltar's trial is a way to distract him from his grief, but I also believe it's something else he can be passionate about and he thinks he has the potential to be good at. It's possible that Kara has helped him in death. Lee would never have been assigned to Lampkin had he not been so distracted and he wouldn't have seen that he could have a life beyond the military.

I also appreciated that Lee didn't seem to be weighed down by guilt because he put her back in the viper. Maybe he does feel guilty, but other emotions he is experiencing seem to overshadow that one. Or perhaps Kara's final words to him resonated and he knows she made a choice.

I thought this was fantastic, although I really need to watch it again. Between the weird sound quality Sci-Fi has on our big tv and all of the ambient noise, I missed half of what was said, and of course, I dozed off during the midnight re-airing.
Hope my meta didn't disappoint you. ;) I thought I'd have a lot more to say, but I was just so happy with what I saw. :)

I thought maybe it was just my TV with the sound quality, but I have seen a lot of people complain they had trouble hearing what they were saying, especially Lampkin. Even watching the midnight showing with the sound turned up I felt I was missing key pieces of dialogue.
Oh, Lee, I empathize, but don’t sound like a bratty twelve year old, OK?

Hee. That was the same thought I had at that moment. Very mature response. He might as well have said "So's your face."

But I liked the episode, even if there were a few things that annoyed me. Like the Adama stuff. And Cally.
At least him being all pissy and juevenile was a nice throwback to the mini. ;)

I think I need to write a fic in which Adama does turn out to be a Cylon and after Laura blows him out the airlock she goes and has sex with his son. :)
I’ve always felt that they could be friends if not for Kara. Now Kara is the one who brings them together. They understand how much pain the other is in and instead of having one of their usual pissing contests over who loved her more, they are taking a remarkably mature attitude to accept how much they both meant to her, she to them, and they support each other in their time of grief.

I loved the Lee/Anders stuff in this episode, love how they are helping each other through this even if they don't really acknowledge that's what they're doing. Have you listened to the podcast yet? Ron says that in an earlier draft Lee and Anders got into a brawl at the memorial wall at the beginning of the episode. How stupid would that have been? It would've been rooted in their deep grief, and they would quickly realize that, but that just wouldn't have rung true to me. These guys have developed respect for each other, and they know that having a pissing contest now that Kara is gone would be senseless. I'm so glad someone in the writers room realized that Lee and Anders connecting with each other now would have a much stronger emotional impact.

The pull that Lampkin has on Lee was really interesting to watch. Yes, he's manipulating him, but in a way it's like Lee is letting him. Lampkin is listening to him and seems to understand him, and that's something few people (especially not his father) seem to offer Lee these days. Lee seems to be looking for a new direction, a new meaning, and he's allowing himself to be drawn into Lampkin's world. I think it will be good for Lee, but with Lampkin being shady as he is, I just don't know where this will ultimately lead. So of course, I can't wait to watch and find out!
Ron says that in an earlier draft Lee and Anders got into a brawl at the memorial wall at the beginning of the episode. How stupid would that have been?

Oh Ron, Ron, Ron, Ron. Why does he think character growth and conflict resolution has to come after two characters beat each other up? See, just having them talk works too!

These guys have developed respect for each other, and they know that having a pissing contest now that Kara is gone would be senseless. I'm so glad someone in the writers room realized that Lee and Anders connecting with each other now would have a much stronger emotional impact.

The Lee/Anders scenes were some of my favorite. And, your right, there is no point in fighting over Kara now, she's gone. But they both loved her, they both have all these memories of her, and it makes sense that would be drawn to each other to share in their grief since Anders seemingly has no one else to turn to and Lee can't open up to Dee or Adama.

Also, we saw at the end of 'Rapture' a hint of grudging respect between the two, it's nice to see them build upon that and perhaps form a true friendship.
The Lee/Anders scenes, in addition to launching many fan fics, were very nicely done. I’ve always felt that they could be friends if not for Kara. Now Kara is the one who brings them together.

They really were very well done, weren't they? I didn't much like Sam at first, but he's grown on me a whole lot this season. I'm glad they seem to be becoming friends. I just wish it didn't have to come at such a cost.

I actually sided with him when he grounded Lee because Lee’s lack of focus could have hurt him or others.

I did, too. Lee totally needed a break from a job that reminds him of Kara at every turn. Which is at least part of the reason why Lee decided to keep helping Lampkin, I think. It's maybe not a consciously-held reason, but he needs something else to do with his time other than being CAG, because being CAG hold too many Kara-memories.

And I think it’s finally hitting Lee that his father has never seen him. Or when he has seen him, as in KLG, Adama dismisses it as an act of rebellion and takes it personally.

No, Adama doesn't see Lee at all. He doesn't realize this case is exactly the sort of thing that would draw Lee's interest, whether or not he thinks Baltar's a good guy or not, since obviously he thinks Baltar is horrible. But horrible or not, Baltar deserves a fair trial, and it's so Lee that he wants to make sure Baltar gets one.
I'm not hardcore into remembering details, but:

besides it being important for Mr. Ron, why the hell is Sam still on Galactica; what's in it for them keeping him around? It's not like he has job skills being a professional pyramid player.
Lampkin manipulated Lee to his advantage, but I see it as a positive thing for Lee. Lee was finally allowed an outlet.

I hope that it is, because I think it's terribly important for Lee to be his own kind of Adama, and this is very much a part of his grandfather's heritage--it's a truism of civil rights that you defend them for everybody, even the most awful cases, and I can't imagine a case more awful than Gaius Baltar. Lee probably can't either. At the same time, though, I don't think Lee, being a manipulative person himself, understands what's going on. Or rather, because Lampkin has shown him one level of manipulation, Lee thinks that's the only level and that he understands it, and that he's willing to go along with it for what it brings him. I wish I didn't fear that were the case, though, because I desperately do NOT want Adama to be right; I fear that the writers will tell us he is even though the text is showing us he's an oblivious jerk and Lee needs to follow his own path, not be brought back into the fold.
Captain Kelly? That may have had more of an impact if this wasn’t like the forth time we had seen him in three years.

Actually the fifth time *mwahaha* ;)!

And if circumstances were different I’d be writing a fic on how the gets the glasses back to the president. ;)

Would have loved to read it ... :)!
Ah and poor Laura,
finally Apollo standing in front of her again, ...and she can't find her glasses mwa hahahaha.
Bamber's acting was brilliant in this episode. The best part for me was when he went from smiling about Romo's kleptomania to suddenly looking sick and fragile when the photo of Kara was brought up. Also, the briefing-room scene reminded me of the one in 'Act of Contrition', only his voice sounded deader and there was no dad to rescue him. You're so right about Adama - it is pathetic and childish for him to get into a row with his son about 'who's the grieviest'. He should grow up some time.

It was so nice to see him mingle with other characetrs like Baltar and Sharon for a change. Ensemble dramas often get into ruts of A+B and C+D interacting and never A+D.

(I can't believe some people on TWoP thought it was bad acting.)
People thought his acting was bad?!?!? Oh, wait, TWoP. ;p

The critics reviews that I've read have been pretty complimentary to Jamie as well as the rest of the cast. I think the problem for some is that he's not a flashy actor and, on top of that, he's playing a character that internalizes his emotions only allowing them to show when he's pushed to his limits. But something I have been very impressed with his he can act the quite moments - that's tough. I was as mesmorized by his performance as that as Tricia and, um, the guy playing Lampkin during the interview and Lee/Jamie didn't say a word. Yet, you could tell exactly what he was thinking just through subtle changes in his facial expressions and demeanor.
As I was watching with danceswithwords I commented to her that the episode was very cerebral. I like that, but I can understand why others might not. It did have a different mood and feel then your typical BSG ep.

There is no question that being able to go up against his father *and* get out of his shadow played a role in his decision to continue assisting Lampkin. But trying to guarantee a fair trial for Baltar is perfectly keeping with a man who mutinied (according to some) to protect the office of the president or who welcomed death after finding out that president he fought to protect and his father were plotting an assassination. Plus, this is the first time in two years he sees that he could possibly have a future not involving the military and simply following in his father's footsteps. Of course he wants to explore this chance he's being given.

I think I can safely say I'll always love Lee. Ron would have to turn him into a rapist and murderer for me to start hating him. And while Ron has failed the character recently, I don't ever see him going to those lengths to destroy him.
Wonderful anaylsis. I really have nothing to add. You said it all. Though I will add, "You've had enough stolen from you," oh. Poor Lee.

I think Lee is twelve. Not a bratty twelve year old - an intelligent, quiet, lost twelve year old who's sometimes bratty because he's twelve. Then again I think that Kara's six, and Kat's five. And that Adama and Gene Hunt from Life on Mars should get together and form an orphanage where they also have Sam (four) and Chris (two) from Life on Mars and Athena who's 14 and far too sexually forward and fed up with all her dorky younger siblings except Lee who she keeps trying to corrupt. So...maybe I'm just weird. Or starved of bizarre crossover crack!fic.

In the crack!fic, Kara gets on far too well with Gene Hunt and Kat wants to grow up to be just like her except less of a jerk and so keeps trying to do all the things Kara does to impress Gene Hunt to Adama instead, and can't work out why all she ends up with are spankings instead of sweets. Aah, I like my brain. Though equal share in the Adama & Hunt's Home for Aging Orphans does need to go to hmpf.