Asta 2

Thoughts on Angel: Lineage


Wow. Where to begin. Wes looked really hot, especially with guns blazing. But, seriously, as Clem would say, Wes, you got 'issues'. One bullet would have been enough to take him out and he unloads the entire clip? I'll let someone else write the essay on how dysfunctional that father/son relationship is. For once, I was going "My poor baby" and wasn't talking about Spike.

Eve I'm actually warming to. I wouldn't say I love her or even miss her when she's not around, but she did have some pivotal and interesting moments. I have to agree that Angel tearing Wes a new one was uncalled for. Fred has been in the field many a time and it's probably sheer luck she hasn't been hurt as badly before. But, when Eve addresses the underlying reason - Wes' involvement with kidnapping Conner - it begins to make more sense. We discover Angel still doesn't completely trust Wes. In large part because he knows what Wes is capable of even as Wes, himself, doesn't.

And this scene is needed in order to establish at the end that Angel finally understands Wes and where he is coming from. Unlike the rest of them, Wes can make the tough decisions. Angel could never kill Conner, instead choosing to erase his existence from their memories and manipulating all their lives. No matter what the personal toll, Wes will sacrifice for the greater good and bare the burden alone.

Now let me take this moment to go "Woo Hoo!" "Yes!" "Thank You!" - Wes remembers his relationship with Lilah! As much as this means to me personally, I then begin to think how it effects the current situation on the show. Wes became involved with Lilah after he was abandoned by the gang because of his kidnapping of Conner. Since that never happened, what was the reason for his involvement with her? And if Wes remembers her and their relationship what else of those two years do they all recall?

I'm not sure what to think of Spike in this episode. Honestly, except for the scene in the elevator, I thought he was unnecessary. Actually, he has yet to play a pivotal role in the season. I know, blasphemy! I don't hate Spike on Angel, but I could enjoy the season just as well without him.

I digress. There were some Spike moments I liked. Full of pride, asking "So you've heard of me?" only be told that they met before...while he was slaughtering orphans. Nice reaction by James. But, um, I get it ME, he was evil, let's move along.

Oh, and there was this gem..."Sex with robots is more common than most people think." Hee. Plus, it was kinda cool to see the guy get to throw a punch again. :)

Being reminded that Wes was "Head Boy" was a nice bit of continuity, but Spike making a huge deal out of it made me cringe. It wasn't *that* funny. Also cringe-worthy - Spike acknowledging his mum wanted to shag him.

I have a couple of problems with this. While I liked the fact Spike was trying to reach out to Wes in his own unique way, it seemed bizarre that he would be as open as admitting to the shagging. Not to mention, contradictory. He was pretty clear to Wood that it was the demon who said those things to him and the demon he killed - not his mum.

Another bit of oddness, Eve and Spike in the elevator. Eve can't take her eye's off of him? Huh? I can't even recall that many scenes where they are in the same room let alone she has him under constant surveillance. Still, their conversation raises a lot of interesting pints. Spike seemed convinced that he screwed up W&H's plan by wearing the amulet. Eve seems to imply that maybe he didn't. Maybe he's exactly where they want him. If so, what are their plans for him?

And where the hell did the cyborgs come from and who are they working for? Someone wants to control Angel. I'll go out on a limb and say I don't think a new CoW is in any way involved. Could it be another branch of W&H? What if their are warring factions? One putting Angel in charge of the LA office, another bringing Spike back to bollocks things up?

On a final note, sorry folks, Fred and Wes? Gonna happen. ;) She finally bought herself a clue tonight and understood just how deep his feelings run. She seems confused as to how she feels about this at the moment but not disturbed by the revelation enough to run screaming from the room either. And convenient how Knox was popping in at all the wrong moments. Evil. :)
  • Current Mood: crazy crazy

Eve I'm actually warming to.

I’m warming to her, too. The little-girlness actually works now that she’s not just mouthing Lilah’s lines. She seems to have wormed her way into Angel’s life, but it’s still hard to tell how really has the upper hand. If it is a folly on Angel’s point, then at least it’s an understandable one. How convenient for W&H that she’s the only one who remembers the past, the only one he can talk to. Their alliance is creepy, and I sometimes wonder who is using who

Wes remembers his relationship with Lilah!

Or does he? As several people have pointed out today, we never actually got a name, and Lilah was beheaded, not chopped into little bits. Wes is an accurate, precise kinda guy, would be have made a mistake like that? I dunno … I’m a bit torn. I loved the Lilah mention, but I find Wes’ current fascination with Fred far creepier if he does remember Lilah. That’s a really scary proposition…

Spike seemed convinced that he screwed up W&H's plan by wearing the amulet. Eve seems to imply that maybe he didn't. Maybe he's exactly where they want him. If so, what are their plans for him?

Or Eve is saying pretty much what she thinks Spike wants to hear…except that she does seem to have a knack for actually telling the truth, only in a way that makes it an even more effective weapon than a lie. So, the plot has certainly thickened.

And where the hell did the cyborgs come from and who are they working for?

I wondered about that, too. Is it a hint of bigger things to come, or did they totally kill faux!dad so they didn’t have to explain it?

On a final note, sorry folks, Fred and Wes? Gonna happen. ;)

I know lots of people like it, but: God I hope not. I have never in my Buffy watching career been more bored or disturbed by a relationship … Well, okay, maybe Willow/Kennedy, but this comes a close second. I don’t like what it does to Wes, and how horribly condescending and controlling he is around Fred. And I don’t like how Fred’s brain and backbone both melt around Wes and she becomes an emotionally immature child. Plus, I’ll fully admit I’m biased, because I love Lilah, and I’m still deeply resentful at the confusing and offensive comparisons being made between her and Fred. So not into Wes/Fred that I even have problems rationalising it. I will give it time, though. If it is going to happen, and I agree that it probably is, then I don’t want to spend the rest of the season groaning about it. But I need a reason for Fred to change her very adamant feelings about Wes beyond “wow, he killed his father for me!” And, I shouldn’t have dumped that on your journal – so, er, feel free to rant or flame or ignore or whatever :)

Oh, but I do totally agree that Knox is evil. But, hey, that doesn't mean he can't make a damn perfect boyfriend. Just ask season 5 Spike :)
How convenient for W&H that she’s the only one who remembers the past, the only one he can talk to. Their alliance is creepy, and I sometimes wonder who is using who

Me too. At first, I thought she was being sympathetic to both men. Then I began to see her manipulating Angel’s emotions. I find the character more and more interesting. Still so-so on the actress.

As several people have pointed out today, we never actually got a name, and Lilah was beheaded, not chopped into little bits. Wes is an accurate, precise kinda guy, would be have made a mistake like that?

Maybe he chopped her up into little bits after beheading her? ;-) Honestly, I have to believe he was talking about Lilah. I don’t think ME would have him talk about an ‘imaginary’ woman we never saw. ME is bringing the mind wipe issue more and more to the forefront. They were giving us one more piece to the puzzle. We were all beginning to believe the last two years of their memories were erased. Now we discover there are some things they do remember. It’s very perplexing.

Besides, it helps to explain why we are seeing a darker Wes than season 2 before the Conner events.

Or Eve is saying pretty much what she thinks Spike wants to hear…except that she does seem to have a knack for actually telling the truth, only in a way that makes it an even more effective weapon than a lie. So, the plot has certainly thickened.

Hmmm, I hadn’t thought of it that way. I’m beginning to suspect someone wants Angel and Spike pitted against each other. Why? I don’t know. But whether what Eve was telling him was the truth or a lie and telling Spike what he wants to here would really make no difference. Both would work to her or her employers (and are we even sure it is the Senior Partners?) advantage.

I don’t like what it does to Wes, and how horribly condescending and controlling he is around Fred. And I don’t like how Fred’s brain and backbone both melt around Wes and she becomes an emotionally immature child. Plus, I’ll fully admit I’m biased, because I love Lilah, and I’m still deeply resentful at the confusing and offensive comparisons being made between her and Fred. So not into Wes/Fred that I even have problems rationalising it. I will give it time, though. If it is going to happen, and I agree that it probably is, then I don’t want to spend the rest of the season groaning about it. But I need a reason for Fred to change her very adamant feelings about Wes beyond “wow, he killed his father for me!”

Given the choice, I’d prefer Wes/Lilah. I find they make a much more fascinating couple. And I do believe he did love her though he is loathe to admit it (much as Buffy was loathe to admit her feelings for Spike).

And, honestly, I wouldn’t have wanted Fred and Wes to become involved prior to this season. Fred was much too emotionally insecure and immature for a relationship to work at all. I don’t’ find Wes condescending or controlling when it comes to her, but I do find him overprotective and worshiping. I don’t even fully understand why he puts her on such a pedestal other then she seems to fit his idea of perfection and I have to agree that is not healthy for either.

And, I shouldn’t have dumped that on your journal – so, er, feel free to rant or flame or ignore or whatever :)

Oh, feel free to dump, rant, bitch, and complain. This is an open forum for all that. :)



Eve can't take her eye's off of him? Huh?

They did show us Eve glaring at Spike in the lab right beforehand, seemingly interested in his ability to exert his will and knock down the beaker; perhaps that was supposed to be typical of how she's been looking at him lately when he's done such things.

I liked Eve a little in this episode when she called Angel on his behavior with Wesley, and a little more in the elevator with Spike. I just can't hate any character for long, I guess. And it will certainly be interesting to find out just what W&H is up to.

You saw Fred/Wes at the end there? Funny. I saw Wes letting go.

I'm breaking the crackspoiler habit, so I don't know if they end up together. But it just doesn't seem likely to me. As you point out, he is patronizing to her (though it's interesting to note that he stood up for her field-readiness to Angel).

You saw Fred/Wes at the end there? Funny. I saw Wes letting go.

I usually end up going against popular opinion in shippy matters. A lot of people saw that scene as Wes letting go. And, honestly, you may all be right. But, with Fred now aware of Wes’ depth of feeling I’m not sure she can let go. I just think ME has made Wes’ feelings too much of an issue to drop it at this point, especially so early in the season.

I’m not sure they’ll end up together either. But, I still see some interesting story telling possibilities in persuing the storyline further.

Thanks for posting your comments btw. I always like seeing new people. :-)
On a final note, sorry folks, Fred and Wes? Gonna happen. ;) She finally bought herself a clue tonight and understood just how deep his feelings run. She seems confused as to how she feels about this at the moment but not disturbed by the revelation enough to run screaming from the room either. And convenient how Knox was popping in at all the wrong moments. Evil. :)

Thank you. I said this last night in chat and was told that I was totally wrong, so it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who saw that as something that has tipped the scales toward Fred having a big epiphany about her feelings for Wes (I agree that it seemed that Wes was finally letting go, but that's usually when the oblivious party starts to wake up and turn around). It's not as if I'm biased by wishful thinking--I've never loved the idea of them together and I still don't (although it's infinitely preferable to me than Spred). It just doesn't make story sense to me for them to bring up his feelings for her again and take it so far if it's not going to go somewhere. They could have dropped it and let us believe that his feelings for Lilah were real and that he was over Fred by last season, but they didn't. So I just don't get how anybody can think that this ep ended that plot thread.
I like your way of thinking. : ) Fred definitely had an epiphany. She may have been aware he had a bit of a crush on her (with the revelation about Lilah, I’m now unsure how far the mind wipe goes and if Fred and Wes are aware of some of their previous interactions), but I don’t think she did realize or wanted to realize the depth of his feelings. I didn’t expect her to jump into his arms, but I do expect to see her start thinking about what this all means and if she has the same feelings for him.

I agree that it seemed that Wes was finally letting go, but that's usually when the oblivious party starts to wake up and turn around.

I think season 6 of Buffy is a good example of that. While Spike was happy to have Buffy back, I didn’t see him trying to insinuate himself in her life or force her to reciprocate his love early in the season. I think he had given up hope until she kissed him in OMWF. So, yeah, now that Wes has decided to move on, Fred may be interested in exploring a potential relationship with Wes.

). It just doesn't make story sense to me for them to bring up his feelings for her again and take it so far if it's not going to go somewhere.

Exactly. Like you, I didn’t see that last scene between them as any sort of ending. Fred is too aware and too confused now to just let the whole thing drop. If ME wanted to make it a dead issue they certainly wouldn’t have had all the Wes jealousy over Fred/Knox and they wouldn’t have made Fred fully aware of Wes’ feelings (at last).
I think Eve is inciting Angel's feelings toward Wesley, rather than understanding them with hammering home about Wes kidnapping Connor, asking about 'the next time he'll betray you', and so on.

Going on about 'head boy' was wrong, wrong, wrong. Drew must have had a brain spasm because Spike was pretty good the rest of the time.

Wes has a tendency towards being chivalrous with a 'good' woman and has a moderate to severe Madonna/Whore complex. I blame those years on the Watcher's Council and probably reading too much King Arthur as a child.

Fred does call him on it, and he's getting better, I think. Gunn treated her like a child too, even more than Wes in some ways. It may be because of how they first met her. Fred has that damsel in distress vibe working.

After all, Wes doesn't try to dissuade her from killing the professor last season, and he didn't have any trouble with her in the field until Angel dressed him down. And finally, even the nicest, hottest men need to to have those rough edges sanded off to make them acceptable to hang out with us :)
I think Eve is inciting Angel's feelings toward Wesley, rather than understanding them with hammering home about Wes kidnapping Connor, asking about 'the next time he'll betray you', and so on.

ITA. At first I thought it was nice that she was being so sympathetic towards Wes and chastising Angel. Then I realized – ‘Ah, alterior motive’. Instead of proving Angel's feelings wrong, she seemed only to get him thinking more about the betrayal and reinforced his distrust.

Going on about 'head boy' was wrong, wrong, wrong. Drew must have had a brain spasm because Spike was pretty good the rest of the time.

The ‘Head Boy’ scene was the one Spike moment that struck me as really wrong, wrong, wrong. Unfortunately, Drew, in his effort to inject some levity into what was essentially a very serious episode, went too far. Not only was Spike annoying, the remarks were ill timed.
Everyone has made such good comments, not sure what I can add, but I'll try :)

I agree with you - it's not the end of Fred/Wes, but the beginning, if not a romance, than the beginning of fleshing out their feelings and seeing where they go. It makes storytelling sense, much more so than saying she's going to be with Spike. Knox is the pefect foil here - he's the type of guy Fred would likely be interested in - he's a geek like her :) And Wes still sees her in Pylea, a girl needing rescuing, someone smart, pretty, and feminine. But he has all these dark feelings, and he doesn't know why.

I love how the mind wipe is being brought further and further into the story. It's just a matter of time.

I did enjoy Spike in the ep, thought the 'bot reference was hysterical, his being able to punch again harkens back to "Doomed" in season four Buffy :) And his converation with Eve shows he's been paying attention more than people think. But I agree with you that the show would have been just as good or intersting without him. It seems as if right now his story is running parallel with everyone else's. We'll have to see how they plan to integrate it later on.
On a final note, sorry folks, Fred and Wes? Gonna happen. ;)

I'd love to comment on your whole post, but I must go to bed, so I'll just share my two cents on this. If anybody interested me more than Wes this episode (hee, I know, sacrilege!) it was Fred. Because in that final scene I saw two things - one is, that Wes has power over Fred. And that kind of disturbed me. Because in their everyday working relationship they get along fine - if he's out of line, she's very quick to let him know. But when he steps over the line, when he reaches out to her, she seems to be drawn into him, into his world. And I don't like the distinction - that they have one relationship that works in their everyday life, but that that somehow wouldn't be part of a romantic relationship between them.

The other thing, I think, is that Fred would love Wes unconditionally - I really believe she would - if he would let her. I don't think he can. I think he feels like he needs to "earn" her love.

I never really got Fred and Wes before - I think, talking over it with various people yesterday and tonight, I do understand it. I just can't quite put it into words. But it's desperately interesting, it certainly isn't over, and I really don't see grounds for them being brought together. I think they still have a lesson to teach each other, but I don't see them being set up long term. But I do think they're bound to each other, in a way - I think Fred feels responsible for him, enormously. And I'm almost worried about how she might act upon that responsibility.

For just the most fabulously awesome take on it all, go and read what ascian3 has to say right down at the bottom of the thread here. And please, ignore my jumbled post beforehand. ;)
Speaking of jumbled posts, this may be one since I'm also commenting on points raised by both you and ascian3 in your respective brilliant analysis of the Wes/Fred dynamic. :)

I've always found the W/F dynamic interesting, yet I don't put it on par with B/S or B/A and a couple in love with each other. As things stand now, I certainly forsee a relationship being explored, but not necessarliy a romantic one.

I totally agree that Wes is in love with an ideal. The closest he's ever come to love and acceptance has been Lilah and he was taught to believe that was wrong because *obviously* someone such as Lilah can't love and someone such as himself shouldn't love her.

Instead he creates an image of the kind of woman he should love - sweet, innocent, pure, bright, caring, selfless, good - and when he meets Fred she fits that image immediately. He believes he knows her without ever really making an effort to prove or disprove his beliefs.

Wes has never experienced acceptance for being himself from anyone. His father, the Watchers Council, and (even if he can't recall it at the moment) his friends have found him to be a failure. Only Fred, who has proven with Spike if there was any doubt, is willing to accept people for who they are without passing judgement. Perhaps the strongest case for Wes' obsession with her.

The more I consider Wes' fixation, Spike's love for Buffy was healthy in comparison. Spike loved Buffy for all that was good about her, but he also managed to see her flaws and weaknesses. She may have been better than him, yet hardly perfect in his eyes. It's an irony that the more passionate and reckless man can see his love without rose colored glasses whereas the rational, sensible man cannot.

Where both men are alike is that each saw the woman they loved as being able to save them from themselves. This 'saving' didn't really happen for Spike until after his darkest moment (the AR) and trying to turn Buffy away from him. Perhaps with Wes acting in a similar manner - turning Fred away - there is hope for him yet.

BTW, I got your e-mail. But, since I too am heading to bed, I must save it for tomorrow's reading. :)