Asta 2

Podcast for 'Deadlock'

I've had a busy week this week and had to listen to this is parts and write up my notes quickly. I hope it all makes sense. As much sense as it can since this podcast was rage inducing. :/

They didn’t change a hell of a lot from start to finish. Originally the episode was titled ‘The Drowning Woman’, referring to Galactica herself, her difficulties and drowning and also, metaphorically, Caprica Six. Jane changed the name.

Originally Caprica was to walk down corridors of Galactica and be set upon by thugs from the Sons of Aries. They moved the action to Dogville during the production process. It was visually more interesting and reminded you that civilians are on board and that Galactica is two tiered with the military above and the civilian survivors down below.

(And here is where the rage begins…)

After Caprica was impregnated, they weren’t sure where they wanted to go with the story. In the writers room, someone had thrown out the idea of Cottle telling Adama that Caprica is pregnant. Ron laughed - “I fucking love that” – then they all laughed. They didn’t know where it would go from there, but Ron said, “Let’s do it”. It provided a further exploration of love and added a layer of complexity to series.

Humans and Cylons are moving closer and closer and are forced by certain circumstances and responsibilities to share certain duties. The CAP felt like a visually interesting way show us rather than tell us what is happening.

Ellen’s arrival is deliberately reminiscent of her first arrival on Galactica in TMU, TMD.

They lost track of Boomer for awhile. (Bet she knows how Lee feels!) While they kept dropping her in, they didn’t have a strong role for her to play. It took awhile to come up with something for Boomer. They never gave up on it, but, at times, they didn’t think it would happen. The writers felt she was a thread that needed to be tied up by the end of the series since she had been there from the beginning.

The Boomer thread was picked up at the midpoint of the season and they asked how would she tie in to rest of show? Her storyline changed after the writer’s strike, but Ron can’t talk about it yet.

In the original draft, Tigh did not greet Ellen at the raptor. He didn’t see her until end of the debriefing. They felt it was stronger to have them reunite in the tease.

Ron likes that Ellen is still drinking, still Ellen, but is something more. She owns her own shit. She doesn’t blame the world for her problems. When the Five’s memories were wiped and they were reinserted into Colonial society, what came to the fore was the default aspects of their personalities. They are who they are and who we’ve known over the course of the series.

As originally structured, Baltar didn’t return as quickly to Galactica as he does here. Angeli’s script caused them to redo Baltar’s part of the story.

What is Baltar’s role with the people now? Who would and would not follow him? What is all about? What he’s after? What’s his real relationship with God at this point? He’s been driven by guilt, self loathing and remorse and those aspects come to the fore here as well. This is another apocalyptic event in their lives, but this time he chooses to return, something he didn’t do in the mini , to try to lead and help them.

In early drafts of the script, Ellen ran down a list of candidates for who Tigh slept with. Laura’s name even came up.

With the Five gathered in one room, the audience would expect something to happen. Ron wanted to get it out of the way as soon as possible. He didn’t want some revelation or moment and liked the idea of nothing happening. Ellen remembers and has a larger awareness – the scene is played on a more personal rather than metaphysical level.

What would the logical next move for the Cylons be? Characters have their own POV and predispositions to do things that will drive them in a certain direction. One the Five were reunited with the Skinjobs, the Skinjobs would say lets get the hell out of dodge.

There was lots of debate as to how the vote would go. Did it have to be unanimous? Democratic? The Cylons seemed to always go with majority rule. They wanted the swing vote to be Ellen.

Baltar is trying to step up a bit, trying to reach out in genuine human levels, and trying to do so without manipulation. He’s trying to act from the right point of view while also trying to reestablish his authority and power. The shawl gives it a somewhat biblical flavor.

The bit about Laura never calling Caprica by name was Mary’s improve.

The writers are sewing pieces together, weaving together a cloth with the visions, opera house, Caprica Six, Caprica’s baby, the one god that Baltar refers to, etc.

(The rage builds….)

As Tigh’s feelings for Ellen rise up and his feelings for Adama are made clear, the baby begins to go into distress. You can read this in one of two ways. Either as a metaphysical connection on the level of ‘Did God’s true love allow child to be conceived? Would it allow the baby to be born? And if the feelings are not true would she lose child? The practical, more prosaic interpretation is that no Cylon had never produced a child. There had been pregnancies, but none taken to term. Tigh and Caprica is just another failed Cylon/Cylon pairing, doomed from the start. From the beginning, they have tried to allow you to see things either way. Is it coincidence or divinely motivated? You can read into the story what you would read into it as the characters would. Some characters would put supernatural spin on it, not wanting something explained by rational means. In ‘33’, Baltar prays just as Laura gives the order for the Olympic Carrier to be destroyed. There is no rational connection between the two events. Baltar saw a supernatural connection, but it could be an extraordinary coincidence. There is no clear, definitive hand of god moment and you can look at it both ways.

There is a reversal of roles with Adama pulling Tigh into his drinking circle.

Galactica is eating away at Adama in the same way Laura’s cancer is eating away at her

(Oh, look, more rage…)

It was important to deposit Head Six here. There were scenes (scripted) for her in earlier episodes. There was a bigger sense of her coming back and Baltar being surprised by her return. They excised the scenes because Ron didn’t want to draw attention to her being gone so long and make it a bigger deal than it was. (Dude, she’s been there since the mini, like Boomer, it was a big deal.) They wanted to use her effectively and have her only show up when she has something to say. She probably visited Baltar off camera so he wouldn’t be completely shocked to see her now. O_o

(And my head starts throbbing…)

They are playing many changes to Galactica. One idea is that there are places on the ship that aren’t safe to go down anymore. Once the mutiny went down, they (Adama et al) had to ship off a big boatload of mutineers. Racetrack, Skulls, and others who sided with Gaeta were shipped off Galactica to the prison ship. (My Narcho! And no wonder they need the Cylons on CAP!) The Galactica had a fairly small crew to begin with and it’s now even smaller with the mutiny as well as a result of what has happened through the years. The ship is honeycombed with different pockets of authority. The marines had their hands full just trying to provide security to vital portions of ship – engineering, launch bays, CIC – that are needed to keep Galactica running. There are no longer enough marines and regular officers. Dogsville and other sections were given over to the civilians. In the wake of the mutiny, a different situation has arisen and they can’t even pretend they are in control of whole ship now. Adama can’t even walk parts of ship (Um, then please explain how Laura is walking around with NO security. Isn’t she vital to the running of the fleet?) This change is not being allowed to happen, it is just happening. Life on the ship now has a half life associated with it. There are wounds to the people and they ship, it’s not a sustainable way of life anymore, the end is coming.

Ellen and Tigh have a Who’s Afraid of Virginia Wolf type of relationship. They hurt each other, but can’t be torn apart from each other. They are machines, but still people on some level. They are still crippled and damaged by their own failings. Ron assumed in the mini she was dead and had no plans to bring her back. He was hesitant to do it. He didn’t want family and friends to keep popping up. But she became more important and she came back for a reason, a larger purpose in the drama.

(And my head explodes…it’s been nice knowing you.)

There is a connection between Tigh’s feelings of truth and love, what is true or not true, and the life of the child. The storytellers are leading you to believe there is a direct connection and that is what caused the miscarriage. But, logically, someone like Cottle would have a very different take on it.

Baltar is giving voice to state of affairs, truly, of the people. He’s speaking for people outside the walls. They are better at defending themselves and being in charge of their own security rather than the overstretched marines who can’t do much with civilian crowd control.

Galactica is becoming a different ship, a different community, with a different idea of community. Who do they accept into their ranks and who do they accept as people? Do they accept Cylons as people? Could they accept them as people?

Apparently, the Cylons are being allowed to add photos to the wall – a big step.
  • Current Mood: cranky cranky
You dare question RDM? :)

Seriously - I LOVE reading your BSG related posts, and appreciate you suffering through these podcasts, because, uh,. I don't have nearly the patience that you must!
I'm one of the least patient people you could find. I just have an overwhelming desire to know everything, even if it enrages me. ;)
The amount I am so not okay with the "lack of love caused the miscarriage" is really enormous. So I choose to believe the saner reasoning.

I hate reading all these times that they just throw crap in. YOU DON'T HAVE A PLAN, RDM. STOP PRETENDING THAT YOU DO.
Ron has a plan, IT'S TO DRIVE US CRAZY!

I choose to go with the saner reason because Cottle would! And thank you, Ron, for establishing your fictional character has more sense than you. :p

See, weirdly I have no problem with Caprica Six's pregnancy being a total off-the-wall idea because my genuine feeling about stories is that you should always go with the most insane, crazy, weirdest idea that still works and I actually agree that it really complexified things and was an interesting development.

What pisses me off is when people make those cracktacular choices and then fail to follow through in any meaningful way; write themselves into a corner and let the storyline die in a fizzle.

Mainly this upsets me because all the talk of how there have been cylon pregnancies just none that made it to term is...stupid. That's never, EVER been mentioned in the show. And even if I was okay with that idea, why would everyone be so excited about Liam when actually, he wasn't unprecedented at all? Caprica's like, "He's the future of the race!" and Tory's like, "Now we can skip out on them!" but surely if this has happened before and ended in exactly this way they would be a mite more cautious? It's dumb.

It also suggests to me that the metaphysical importance of Liam's existence will go unanswered and that this storyline is somehow done with.

Plus it's just really twisted to suggest that because a guy has complicated feelings for his suddenly-not-dead wife hie son has to die. And it makes me angry that yet again Caprica is left emotionally devastated because a man didn't love her enough. ::eyeroll::

Srsly. They need fix this. Explain what Liam meant/why he had to die and at the very least, give Caprica an ending where someone finally validates her existence as someone who deserves better than being the endless second-string girlfriend.
Mainly this upsets me because all the talk of how there have been cylon pregnancies just none that made it to term is...stupid. That's never, EVER been mentioned in the show. And even if I was okay with that idea, why would everyone be so excited about Liam when actually, he wasn't unprecedented at all?

And the thing is I thought the talk of prior Cylon pregnancies that didn't come to term was cut because they realized, gee, this doesn't make sense. Why would Sharon's pregnancy have been a big deal then? There shouldn't have been any joy until after Hera was born of they knew Sharon could miscarry at any time. But Ron didn't allude to the information being cut because it didn't fit in with the established story. In fact, he was talking about it like we knew all this. With four episode left YOU CANNOT ALTER CANON.

Plus it's just really twisted to suggest that because a guy has complicated feelings for his suddenly-not-dead wife hie son has to die.

And I probably shouldn't mention that they established the FATHER'S love was more important than the mother's. >:(

And this is after RDM had his "it's all about the characters" epiphany and rewrote the back half of the ceiling.

Only when he says characters, he doesn't mean Boomer.

Or Head!Six.

Or problematic children.

Dude, I always knew Cottle was the smartest one on that ship.

Okay, look. I actually AM a Christian. I do believe in God. I believe my boys are direct gifts from God and they are miracles. BUT, they are created because my husband and I had sex. We decided to have children because we love each other, but the actual procreation part came about because we. had. sex. Plain and simple. This "love is needed to create a child" thing is BULLSHIT, highly offensive to any woman who's ever gotten pregnant off a rape or any loving couple who has struggled with infertility or a miscarriage, and just BULLSHIT. I've been lucky enough that I never experienced a miscarriage, but the more I think about it, the more I think that if I had, this arc would have offended me on a very personal level.

What would have worked for me? How about now that the Resurrection Hub is destroyed and the Cylons accepted mortality, they can procreate. I'm fine with bringing God into it, but in my opinion, THAT'S the way to do it. (I can't claim credit for that theory. I forget where I saw it, but someone else said it first and I thought it was BRILLIANT.) I'm going with Cottle. Caprica lost the baby because of the fight down in Dogsville and then the stress she was under caused her to get too worked up, and the pregnancy was likely to have ended, anyway.

The whole thing about the mutineers being shipped off off screen with no explanation bugs me, too. It's not so much that it's a bad idea- it makes total sense (assuming the Astral Queen is no longer in the hands of people who support Tom Zarek, in which case the mutineers probably got a heroes welcome rather than tossed into cells). It could have easily been tied into a conversation, Adama realizing how he couldn't post guards someplace and saying why he was so short handed or something.

Also, all I can say is that if the Cylon pictures are being added to the walls, Gaeta and Zarek had better be on there someplace, too.

Ron, have an icon :P
I want to find out Cottle is god. :)

highly offensive to any woman who's ever gotten pregnant off a rape or any loving couple who has struggled with infertility or a miscarriage

I agree. And I know several people who have experienced miscarriages and I imagined they were none to pleased with what the show was saying her. I know Terry Moore has chosen to be in the dark for the back half of the season. She wanted to be surprised along with fans. But I wonder if Ron had run this plot idea by her she might have said, "You're kidding me, right?"

I think bringing God into the mix is fine. Establish that they believe God has blessed them with the ability, or at least possibility, to procreate. Athena has proven a Cylon can give birth. But saying love HAS to be involved is rubbish. And I'm still not convinced Athena loved Helo until after she knew he had knocked her up.

If I find time to do it, I have thoughts I'd like to share on the mutineers being shipped off and the rise of a civilian police force. Both plot points do make sense given the state of Galactica. It's just the storylines were handled so badly. And instead of Adama wandering around the ship, staring at the beams, waiting for them to do I don't know what, how about a scene where he's watching Racetrack, Narcho, Seelix, and the rest handcuffed and being led to raptors to be taken off Galactica. It still wouldn't be an ideal goodbye, but it would be something.
And I'm still not convinced Athena loved Helo until after she knew he had knocked her up.

I would totally agree with this. One of my pet peeves is that I think love takes time to develop. Granted, she had Boomer's memories, and at least knew more about Helo, but I'm always skeptical of the word "love" being used before a certain point. TV love and real world love are generally nothing alike in my experience. Which in some ways I totally understand. I mean, I am insanely in love with my husband, but nothing about our relationship would make good TV viewing. (Him thoughtfully filling my gas tank or doing the laundry or listening to me talk about stupid little things just wouldn't draw in the viewers like Kara shooting someone because they put a hand on Lee does.)

I'd definitely like to hear your thoughts about the mutineers and the civilian police force. I totally agree that both plot points make sense. I've written out two versions (one silly and one serious) of scenes that could have happened in comments on various people's entries, and it frustrates me that they couldn't even work in a mention.

To be honest, while I'm not surprised that Adama spared Racetrack, Skulls, and most of the rest of them, I am surprised he spared Narcho, given that Narcho was the one that was going to command the firing squad. (I still think he was going to be Gaeta's XO.) But I can also see where putting Narcho into that scene really wouldn't have worked. Plus, he's just too pretty to die!

Plus, he's just too pretty to die!

I support that conclusion! ;) I also suspect Narcho's words to Adama, which surely expressed the sentiments of a lot of people in the fleet, had quite an impact. That there were men and women that still respected him and didn't really want to be a part of this, but they felt Adama had given them no other choice. Zarek and Gaeta's motivations were driven by a desire for power and revenge.
pardon me for barging in (came over from the meta links on galactica news): but THANK YOU for saying this! I'm also religious, and a mom, and nothing infuriated more than that idiotic story line that "only love can create babies". Oh, PLEASE. Not to mention we've never seen anything to indicate that Tigh looooooooooooooooved Six. He was a lonely, broken man looking for comfort. Hell, he thought Six *was* Ellen when he was frakking her! How is this TWU WUV???????????

While I've enjoyed parts of this last 'season', I've also been bitterly disapointed in others. You've all raised many of my disappointments with this particular episode.
*passes you Tylenol and mop*

Yeah man. Poor Caprica.

Also, it's not like what happened to the mutineers is important enough to be addressed on the show.
Setting aside all the stuff that probably would have had me screaming at the screen (oh Ron Moore, why are you my nemesis), I'm just going to point at my icon and make this face a lot. D: D: D: D:
It's frustrating that one of the great things about the series - the constant and returning minor supporting characters - have just been cleaned off the board without mention. I can see why dramatically you'd want to move them out of the way before the finale, BUT SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT IN THE TEXT!

As I mentioned above, if we at least got a shot of Racetrack, Narcho, etc being led away in handcuffs to raptors, it would have been a crappy goodbye, but it would have been some closure.
I thought of you during the podcast. I can only hope Racetrack and Narcho got locked up together so they can at least have lots of sex.
I like the way you report where you are on the rage meter as you go along. It tracks pretty well with my own feelings.

In conclusion, shut up Ron Moore!

Edited at 2009-02-25 09:03 pm (UTC)
I am not the world's greatest writer. But when I see so many miniscule tweaks that could have actually made this episode make sense without adding any costs to the production, they REALLY missed the boat on this one. Not sure if I'm pissed enough and motivated enough to devote a post to it. But man, RDM is an asshat.
Even the critics have pointed out that instead of spending time on numerous shots of Adama wandering around staring at Cylon goo they could have clarified plot points. Or, ya know, explained them AT ALL.
hey! after reading all what they cut of the episode and all they said in the podcast, this could possibly be the worst episode of the show? worst than Black Market? Because at least, Black Market had shirtless Lee :)
I was just going to say the same thing! I thought I hated Black Market - and I even tried to defend this episode before. But now I think this episode is so wrong-headed on every level, I choose to watch Black Market again. At least wrong-headed noir with shirtless Lee is better than wrong-headed ZOMG BABIES DIE WITHOUT LOVE subtext.
The silver lining in all this? 'Black Market' looks better! I never thought that episode could make sense, but in comparison...
Thanks for recapping! Don't think I could listen to those podcasts nowadays, too hard on my nerves.

Just goes to show how much Ron thinks every plot line through to the end before he introduces it!
And the part about almost half the crew being shipped off and not having the manpower to control and protecting civilians anymore is not important enough to be shown on screen, srsly?

I appreciate Ron wanting to keep the ambiguity, about what characters choose to believe, but the lack of love kills babies idea is just horrible, I don't think even deeply spiritual or religious people could believe that. And quite frankly I'd understand if someone would feel offended by that suggestion, even if it's just being toyed with in fiction. I just can't understand how the writers could have thought, it was a good thing to keep this ambiguous.
And thus Ron proves, yet again, that there should have been less wandering about the ship in a drunken state by Adama and more of WHY THE FRAK THINGS ARE HAPPENING. Asshat.
Well, you know EJO Is so amazing that even his drunken wanderings are more worthwhile than clarifying the plot! Not that I'm bitter.
all I can do is nod and try not throw up at this point.
I've been an adamant RDM critic since season 2, I even got rid of
all my RDM icons because sometimes I think he's a drunken chain smoking
idiot. (sound like anyone we know...maybe the Galactica falling
apart is semi autobiographical for Ron) He didn't pay attention
when it really mattered and now he's got cracks and breeches
all along the hull of his once incredible show.

I am at times so angry I can't think straight and at other times
glad they didn't do a season 5 where he could pull more of this
kind of bullshit.